Your opinion of higher education

No, but for many jobs, I wouldn't hire someone without a college degree. I certainly wouldn't hire a lawyer without a law degree.

 

It's not the sole reason, but it's related to the real point of higher education, which is preparation for the future. To some degree, higher education without job prospects is foolish. It's not a good preparation for the future.

 

It's our job as parents to be judiciously supportive, not indiscriminately supportive.

Meantime, the sole purpose of higher ed IS fiscal security ... for 99% of us. Only the very very rich can truly afford to spend 4 years learning about poetry. Parents who support vanity degrees are stunningly irresponsible .... or very very rich.

 

It isn't a lie, if you take marketable courses. And if you take gender studies, then are surprised to learn you can't repay your debt .. you're an idiot.

 

Sure, but the same amount of education (years) will earn you 5+ times that as a surgeon. Or even an orthodontist.

 

Definitely would not hire a chemist that didn't train in chemistry. A philosophy degree wouldn't cut it no matter how well the individual felt he could "think"

 

What? The Cooley Law School is one of the lowest ranked in the country, out of hundreds. It is not "#8" in any reputable poll, unless you mean the "ten worst" law schools or something. Perhaps the 8th best for African Americans:

"During the 2015-2016 application cycle, Cooley admitted 85.8% of applicants. The entering fall 2016 class had a median GPA of 2.90 and median LSAT of 141 (15th percentile of test takers).[30] The 25th percentile GPA of enrolled students was 2.60 and the 25th percentile LSAT of enrolled students was 138 (9th percentile of test takers).[31] Law professor David Frakt described Cooley's 2015 entering class as "statistically the worst entering class of law students in the history of American legal education at an ABA-Accredited law school."[32]

In 2012, Cooley was noted, by a plaintiff's attorney in a civil lawsuit regarding false advertising, for having "the loosest admissions standards of any accredited or provisionally accredited American law school... the employment prospects of its graduates are grim, even compared to the generally dire state of the legal job market."[33] In 2013, the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit upheld the district court's dismissal of the plaintiff's lawsuit because although the graduates’ complaint showed that the statistics on which they relied was objectively untrue, their reliance on the statistics was unreasonable.[34] Judge Quist noted that "it would be unreasonable for Plaintiffs to rely on two bare-bones statistics in deciding to attend a bottom-tier law school with the lowest admission standards in the country."

 

Don't listen to him. I just posted the truth about Cooley in this thread. It's a bottom tier law school, one of the worst in the country

 

They make great pizza (inside joke between my wife and myself. We think most people who make pizza in college towns have philosophy degrees).

 

Yeah, I tried to order a pizza from one of those guys.

He says, "You say 'hold the olives,' but what do you mean?"

 

Pardon me - Cooley is from Western Michigan U, not Univ of Michigan

 

other Michigan school rankings:

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/articl...w-schools-slide-in-u-s-news-national-rankings



The Michigan State University College of Law, which slid from No. 80 to No. 87 last year, now is in an eight-way tie at No. 94, just above where it ranked four years ago. And the Wayne State University Law School reversed a major surge in rank last year, when it tied at No. 87 with MSU. The school is now No. 105, just as it was two years ago.

The Western Michigan University Thomas M. Cooley Law School — which has campuses in Auburn Hills, Lansing and Grand Rapids — and the University of Detroit Mercy School of Lawboth are in a second-tier group of 45 schools with a "not published" rank, like last year.





Still the bottom line is - how many of these grads have jobs in the legal profession?


Many of their schools claim every graduate has a high paid job when the truth is that many of them are unemployed. This is why so many grads sued their schools.

 

Name one.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=law...me..69i57j0.5979j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

Look, your claim above was that "many of their schools claim every graduate has a high paid job." I don't know what you meant by "their," but I asked you to name a school that claims that EVERY graduate has a high [sic] paid job." You gave me links to some lawsuits, not links to these claims.

No one disputes that lower tier law schools engage in puffery. Every institution does this to an extent. But you're creating a false picture of an entire industry defrauding students. Many people are wasting time in law school. But many also end up with well paying jobs. And the best law schools are not exaggerating at all -- the top firms want the best students, and the best students for the most part went to the best schools.

Employment of lawyers is projected to grow 6 percent from 2014 to 2024, about as fast as the average for all occupations. Competition for jobs should continue to be strong because more students graduate from law school each year than there are jobs available.
Lawyers - Bureau of Labor Statistics
https://www.bls.gov/ooh/legal/lawyers.htm

 

Not a false picture at all - otherwise there would never have been so many lawsuits against those law schools. Small wonder why so many people hate lawyers.

 

I think the median salary in SF is 65,000.

Some people can't compete, and a lot of times when they can't compete they want "free" things from the rest of society.

 

You are right though, Robert. In the Bay area, the median salary is higher than the rest of SF. I looked it up.

 

When I entered law school over 30 years, I was told that its graduates average salary was that number. When we graduated, half of the class remained unemployed.

 

Good question I was asked this by young relatives and said simply - How much hard work and how well prepared do you want to be to get into a competitive school if your long shot school isn't realistically going to be Ivy League or Seven Sisters or trying for a Service Academy like West Point then your not likely prepared and trying hard enough. Now I assume this the one long shot school not the safe school or one your likely to get into say the well regarded University of Wisconsin - Madison. But could Bryn Mawr for you (it was a young woman) be an option if you applied.

Next is what do you want to do if its be a soldier then get your High School Diploma, go to a good community college learning something that can easily transfer say Nursing then enlist you will be far better off with your likely area of work to be nursing but you showed them your educated enough to learn more and want to be a valued member of the army long term. If you want to do a trade there are other options Wisconsin has several excellent technical colleges that know how to teach well. If you want to be however a Teacher and plan to major in say interdisciplinary science and minor in math getting teaching credentials then I say good your thinking of the kind of education that will be in demand long term teaching High School science and mathematics and then college makes a lot of sense. If they wanted to earn a masters in organic chemistry and that is applied focused and there were great jobs in that then awesome go for it if you meet my last criteria on schools.

But going to college and into debt for a trendy humanities or social studies degree is stupid to me unless your good enough to teach it and are willing to earn a doctorate and even then its a ton of time and debt over other options.

 

I can't even see trying to plan a career as a professor thee days, unless you're happy living in a garage apartment with no family to support, and I really see nothing wrong with that at all if it's your passion.

 

As a percentage of the entire number of lawyers, the number of lawsuits is tiny. But now you're introducing another factor: If people hate lawyers just because lawyers go into debt and then can't find a job, then there is no help for them. They just like to hate.

 

Some people prefer that life. I often wonder how nice life would be if I had a job like that, went home to my apt where I lived alone, had more freedoms.

 

Joe Z, who once worked part time for me, passed the Bar exam here in the SF Bay Area and struggled to find a job. He found work at CA in the tax audit division and his starting pay was the state allowed $36,000. I don't ask him about his raises but have little doubt he has got them. He left the Bay Area and moved to the Mt. Shasta area where he works almost entirely from his home. I guess a sign of the left wing nature of CA. This is not to say he never is called back to SF to meet or whatnot. I have to check with his mom, but I think he has 10 years or so working for the State.

 

Thanks for your work on the topic.

If some think SF is bonkers, they need to see Berkeley. One might think values are extremely high but, and this is an educated guess, since they have a draconian rent control. it is likely to hold down property value. Not that they seem to care of course. It is tough on students though since even lousy homes cost a lot there.