Well, here's my take. I apologize that this is a long post but you did ask a lot of questions. I'll try to keep it as brief as I can. Well, yeah. "Then The Lord will go forth and fight against those nations as when He fights on a day of battle. On that day His feet shall stand on The Mount Of Olives which lies before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley; so that one half of the Mount shall withdraw northward, and the other half southward. And the valley of my mountains shall be stopped up, for the valley of the mountains shall touch the side of it; and you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then The Lord your God will come, and all the holy ones with Him." Zechariah 14:3-5. Acts 1:6-12 also has two angels saying Jesus will return. Not crucial to them, but to God. "The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem. And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it. In that day, says the Lord, I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem are my strength in the Lord of hosts, their God. In that day I will make the governors of Judah like a firepan in the woodpile, and like a fiery torch in the sheaves; they shall devour all the surrounding peoples on the right hand and on the left, but Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own placeJerusalem. The Lord will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah. In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem." That's in Zechariah. Well, a bit more than just His principles. You have to believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, that He is the sacrifice for your sins, that he died and rose from the grave, that He resides with His Father in Heaven. Then you have the principles, but I don't want to make the post longer than I suspect it already is. But no, not thru Israel or the Jews, or the Law (That would cover a lot of Paul's writings. Not getting into that here unless you want several pages worth of posts!) The Jews are still waiting for the Messiah to come; they do not believe Jesus was Him. However, there is a quote from John 5:43 "I am come in my Father's name, and you receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him you will receive." Long story VERY short, it's strongly suggested that this means there is someone coming who will proclaim to be the Messiah and the Jews will accept him. He's supposed to somehow allow the rebuilding of the Third Temple (and we've already discussed how the plans to build it are already there in another thread. However, this man is actually The Man of Perdition, and no one will question him until about 3 1/2 years into his rule as a world leader. At that point, the Antichrist is supposed to walk into the temple and announce that he is God. At this point, the Jews and Israel are going to realize they've been duped. There's more stuff, but it ends with God fighting for Israel and Jerusalem, as listed above, and then you'll have this: And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, and all the rest of the clans and their wives" in Zechariah 12. So you do have the plan of redemption for the Jews. God hasn't forgotten them. Jesus called Him Father. Jesus also said "We worship what we know, for Salvation is of the Jews" so he did identify with them even if it wasn't reciprical Short form: The problem the Jews were having is that their legalism had overtaken their worship. Jesus came, among other reasons, to steer them back on the right path - and a number of them did do so, many of the early Christians, or Followers of the Way, were Jews. The law for a tooth for a tooth, for instance, was meant by God so that you weren't supposed to take someone who had slapped you and then kill him, the punishment for a crime was supposed to be equitable. The Jews at that point however had taken it too literal. And as far as God appearing to people in the OT, those are Theophanies, or Jesus appearing to man in a pre-incarnate form. It's true, you can't see God in His pure form, but Jesus Himself said that if you see Him, you have seen the Father so there you go. And if you're wondering how He could appear before He wasborn, Jesus also said that "before Abraham was, I Am" - which was a clear indication that Jesus had been around for a long time before His incarnate birth. And if you have questions about that, ask away but like I said, I think this post is long enough as it is! Hope I helped a little.
How did the original premisis Washington Out of Control get to Israel bashing. I though when I read it that we would discuss our stupid congressmen aqnd women that don't listen to the voters. A least be fair and tell us that you don't like Israel
I'm curious: What church DO you go to? Because I'm thinking any church that barely uses the Bible has to be one of those uber-Liberal denominations that I keep hearing about. The closest to an American church would be the Southern Baptists, but they'd be far from liberal. I'm thinking that if you wanted a church that did use the Bible frequently, you'd want a sola scriptura type, say Calvary Chapel. Their core philosophy is to just read thru the Bible for the most part. True enough.
Then we will have to disagree. The 'god' of the OT sounds like a malevolent, genocidal, infanticidal, slavery approving, LUNATIC. Imo of course...
That was a v interesting post, SW, out of respect, I am going to came back to it, on Monday night, as I am a little tired to make my thoughts properly expressed, and I wish to mull over what you wrote. But I will come back to it.
So when Jesus said "No man comes to the Father save through Him", who WAS He talking about except the God of the OT that had sent all the prophets and prophecies regarding Jesus' coming?
I don't see the importance of what Church I attend because I don't believe everything they say either because some of the things they preach in Church is based on Americanism. The pastor while he is a nice guy rare uses the Bible don’t really understand what the gospel is. But quite a few Pastors use little of the Bible when they preach and some you would be hard-pressed to hear them ever quoting the Bible.
I truly do not know, SW. I have read the OT. It is EVIL. Jesus seems out of step with that. I will give it more thought, and come back though.
Jesus is the one who created all things.....He's the one that is called the Word, who became flesh. John 1:1-3 (KJV) 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:14-18 (KJV) 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Well, I asked because I wanted to know what kind of church DOESN'T use the Bible that much! It was purely a matter of curiosity because honestly, I don't know how you can have a church that doesn't use it all the time. It's a bit mind-boggling to me. But, if you're happy with it, fine. And if not, give a few others a look. I apologize if you thought I was trying to ask a personal question or trap you or suchlike.
It’s not so much that they never use the Bible it’s that they are stuck on using a few scriptures here and there over and over again but ignore the vast majority of the Bible. Some examples, are they don't even know that Jesus is coming back to live on the Earth and that the saints will live on the Earth with Him. They don't even know that every single human being that have ever lived and died will be raised from the dead but the dead saints will be resurrected first, then many many years later the other will be. They think the gospel is about Jesus but Jesus never spent three and a half years preaching about Himself……Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom. No problem.
Don't worry about the US. The Tea Party will get the US back under rational control in November. But we'll continue to urinate on the Paleos.
Religious arguments are futile. Faith cannot be trumped by either logic nor fact. Interpretations of a two thousand year old (older) book written by a bunch of highly ignorant people who could't tell a natural phenomenon from a miracle, and then bastardized by multiple generations of grubby, greedy, ignorant humans who invented all kinds of dogma and belief in a vain attempt to be holier than thou or to control their "flocks" or those of their monarch. And today in the 21st century, if this hijacked thread is any example, the level of religious discourse/debate has not progressed one iota. I have to wonder abot any "god" who insists its followers beleive in myths and fables at the expense of reality.
You seem confused .. the Taliban did not attack us. It was OBL. These are two differnt groups. Regardless .. the Taliban is a bunch of disorganized bands who happen to adhere to the same religion. It is kind of silly to talk about them as "re-grouping". It is Afghanistan that will deal with the Taliban .. or vice versa. We can help by funding one side or the other but boots on the ground has accomplished little at a tremendously high cost. Soon we will leave .. and as in Iraq the situation will be no better.
The early Christian fathers did not believe that Jesus was God. It is unlikely that John was written by "John" but even if it was .. that passage is unclear and is contradicted numerous times by Jesus referring to God as an entity other than himself. The idea that Jesus was God was introduced around 200 by Tertullian and this first reference to the Trinity as we know it was declared heresy by the Church. It was Constantine around 325 that declared the Trinity was doctrine and he did this for political reasons.
There is a lot of wisdom there too, when one sits under an olive tree, away from modern time jobs, inhaling large amounts of Myrrh or whatever......., one can reach enlightenment and wisdom Besides its a great history book, Its a good read if you know Hebrew.
Funnily enough I had some really good "myrhh" the other day while sitting under a pine tree by a lake in the middle of nowhere just last week. (600 km north of Toronto)
