Anti-vaxxers crumble as every prediction fails to come true

Read the report.

Yeah, sure--all those scientists are stupid for wasting their time with VAERS.

You need to get closer touch with reality.

 

You limited your view of risk to hospitalization and death. Risk also includes possible damage to long-term health. Why did you ignore this latter consideration far more likely to be an issue for younger people?

 

You continue ignoring the comparison of Sweden to Canada.

Covid deaths per 100,000...

Sweden -- 235.43
Canada -- 135.23
British Columbia -- 101.15**

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

**5,430 covid deaths and 5,368,266 population

 

You weren't talking about fitness and health? See above.

https://www.aegisliving.com/where-to-begin/how-to-choose-a-community/what-is-skilled-nursing-care/

Skilled nursing patients are often old, in poor health and at great risk if they contract covid. A lot of the staff in skilled nursing facilities are more likely to get covid because of their socio-economic level in society.

We can make sure employees get vaccinated, but we can't monitor their sleep.

No one is requiring people to work in a skilled nursing facility.

 

Please refrain from posting incorrect information. The Phase III data from both the Moderna and Pfizer trials showed there was no significant difference in serious adverse events between the group that received the vaccine and the placebo group. The 1 in 800 number comes from a reanalysis performed by Fraiman et al which I have shown to be methodologically questionable.

Surely, as a “Research Scientist”, you should know you can’t take the results from a reanalysis done after the fact and state they apply to the Phase III trials.

Being a typo tyrant, I will point out it’s ‘found’ not fond and myoCARditis not ‘myocharditis’.

From the study:

You don’t seem to understand the results of the Phase III clinical trials are as follows:

Moderna:

Pfizer:

As much as you try to twist things, both Phase III trials were looking at vaccine efficiency and safety signals.

As a research scientist, you might appreciate that spelling words correctly of things you are discussing comes across better. I usually assume that people who have actually looked into something like myocarditis might actually know how to spell it after reading about it.

Okay, let’s go with the Phase III Clinical Trial Data is the best data out of the two clinical trials, the reanalysis by Fraimen, and the large observational study. So therefore:

Moderna:

Pfizer:

The Phase III trials found there were no safety signals of concern which you have now stated is the best data to go with, not the Fraiman et al dodgy reanalysis, nor the observational study.

Okay, let’s default to the results that there were no significant differences between the vaccine group and the placebo group in terms of severe adverse events. Okay, let’s throw out the data from a study with information about SAE’s from millions of vaccines because it couldn’t possible pick up the SAE’s that a smaller study missed.

Please don’t make stuff up. You absolutely did get the quote from — https://www.bmj.com/content/384/bmj.q488 — which was a news article in the BMJ, not the actual study.

No, the news article didn’t give any actual numbers, the actual study did and you would have seen where the news article lifted the quote from and all the data as well. Stop trying to backtrack. If you had read the original study, you would have seen many numbers. I am surprised as a ‘Research Scientist’ it didn’t occur to you from the lack of data, you weren’t actually looking at the study itself. I was a news article in the BMJ. It’s not difficult to admit your error of quoting from the BMJ news article rather than the actual study. I had no difficulty in admitting I made an error linking to the news article rather than the actual study.

You have not addressed the ‘reanalysis’ performed by Fraiman et el and obviously haven’t looked at how they manipulated the data from the Phase III trials to fit it to their hypotheses. Perhaps you would care to actually look at the links, and use your ‘Research Scientist’ knowledge to comment why the scientists/authors of the various links are incorrect.

You would think as a ‘Research Scientist’ that you wouldn’t choose just one source of information and ignore a preponderance of evidence; that you would understand how bias works; that you would understand data manipulation; wouldn’t take the results of a poor reanalysis and try to apply it to two other RCT’s; you wouldn’t try to conflate causation from two studies that weren’t even studying causation; and you wouldn’t ignore the fact that extremely large observational studies can pick up on serious adverse events that smaller RCT’s might miss due to the subject pool being smaller by about 98 million people.

I am beginning to the think the fallacy is that you aren’t actually a ‘Research Scientist’ at all.

 

Oh dear. You assumed I’m taking about fireman carrying people down ladders? Or cops chasing 19 year old felons over fences? LOL

I’m talking about the fact being overweight not only makes one more likely to be infected, but once infected, overweight are “superspreaders” of transmission.

Overweight are more likely to cause accidents at work as well, but I’m just talking about infectious disease here—Covid specifically.

Also, overweight folks lose protective antibodies from vaccination more quickly than healthy weight individuals. So even mandating vaccination leaves overweight folks as more danger to others.

I see. Exclusive use of the term skilled nursing patients threw me off. I guess I see people in simple assisted living housing etc. as at risk as well. Sure. Those requiring skilled nursing are at high risk. Certainly. But at just as much or more risk from an obese employee as an unvaccinated (especially previously infected) healthy weight employee.

I’m not saying there aren’t at risk groups. I’m simply pointing out the intellectual inconsistency of wanting to mandate vaccination to protect them but not things that would be equally or more protective.

Of course we could monitor their sleep. We just don’t want to.

Did someone say someone was requiring people to work in skilled nursing facilities?

Nobody is forcing anyone to eat Twinkies either. Or stay up late watching Netflix.

There is a big difference between having a requirement in a contract at point of employment and firing existing employees for not following a mandate made outside that contract.

But still, why no desire to protect the vulnerable from obese people? Or people who party instead of getting proper sleep? Why the obsession with vaccination? It makes people who think critically wonder what the hell motivates some folks. It doesn’t seem to be genuine concern for health.

 

As a ‘typo tyrant’ I have noted a mistake I made. It should be ‘it was a news article in the BMJ’ not ‘I was a news article in the BMJ’. I don’t know if I actually would want to be a ‘news article’ or even have a news article in the BMJ. I suppose I could write about cherry picking and ignoring multiple studies or some such thing.

 

And again this is all meaningless without age and precondition information.

 

You are incorrect. I know that there are risks for everything. What is the percentage?

 

Employers think about the cost of enforcement. It's easy to make sure employees are vaccinated and more difficult to enforce weight rules.

I just haven't seen a practical way of protecting people from obese workers.

I'd say you're the one obsessed.

I don't see how your unwillingness to consider the damage even a single covid-infected employee can cause in a skilled nursing facility shows you have a "genuine concern for health."

 

Meaningless, perhaps, to those who don't understand statistics?

 

Meaningless with regard to causality.

 

It costs more to terminate employment for choosing to be unvaccinated than to terminate employment for choosing a lifestyle that makes one more likely to be a superspreader vaccinated or unvaccinated?

No. It’s just more “socially acceptable” for you to accept risk from one than the other. You’ve been conditioned by everything from public health entities to entertainers to politicians to accept risk (actually celebrate it) from one group while being conditioned to fear and loath another group that is actually far less of a threat.

Hmmm. Nobody is forcing anyone to work in at-risk populations, remember?

How is it you can figure out how to get people to vaccinate against their will, but not practice any other actions that protect others? Odd.

Well, I’m a bit obsessed with educating people on things like Covid, yes. I’m not obsessed with mandates like ya’ll. I’m certainly not obsessed with ONE measure while ignoring other more important ones.

Can you quote where I’ve demonstrated unwillingness to consider damage a Covid infected employee can cause? Actually I’m the only one here pointing out there is more than one way to prevent that damage. Been that way since April 2020 when I started encouraging people to use free, available, very effective mitigations your public health entities won’t even tell you about.

 

Yeah, sure.

 

You're wearing it out. I said it was easier to make sure employees are vaccinated than leading a healthy life.

I said I had no objection to skilled nursing employers requiring covid vaccinations of employees. While I think they could work with employees on alternative mitigation measures, my experience with them and what I've read about their problems suggests patients would be at risk with that approach.

 

I see. It’s not about health. I was correct. It’s about virtue signaling and convenience.

I don’t think it’s funny how ya’ll are manipulated. I find it sad, especially as it is the most at-risk that suffer most from a misinformed and uninformed public.

I know you approve of mandated vaccination. I just wish there was as much concern for other risk factors as for vaccination status. It would save a lot of lives.

 

Absolutely sure. If age and preconditions are not included in the data the data is meaningless.

 

Do you know anything about skilled nursing facilities, especially those Medicaid patients can afford? My impression is you don't or you would at least pay some attention to what I said about other mitigation measures and the inability, not just unwillingness, of care facilities to implement and monitor those programs.

Do you know how Medicaid pays for skilled nursing care for indigent Americans? I'd bet you don't.

You're woofing.

Depends upon the vaccination and purpose.

I wore this P100 respirator when "masks" were required.



How about you?

 

How absurd. You quite obviously have no idea how to use data and statistics.

 

I know that without age grouping and preconditions groupings the data is not useful.

 

Well I know a lot more about them than you apparently. I know obese employees are as much of a danger to patients as unvaccinated employees—in many cases more of a danger. I know it’s been easy to monitor sleep in employees if one wanted to since 2009.

I have no idea why you are bringing up Medicaid.

Are you “woofing” as you call it? LOL

I took care of all the long term care business for my mother. I am the trustee of a special needs trust of a relative that required off and on skilled nursing in various locations.

You lose that bet.

No. Just trying to get you to care about more than you are instructed to care about.

We are discussing Covid vaccination of employees still unless you switched up on me.

Don’t see any relevance, but I was probably self quarantined running around caring for animals and plants in the sunshine and fresh air without having to worry about masks. I was on PF trying to educate folks who were telling me I needed to wear a mask with an exhalation valve “to protect others” that I was miles away from.

I was presenting peer reviewed research all over PF showing how advice on masking from public health entities was not only in conflict with evidence produced by application of the scientific method, but also intentional disinformation.

I was providing PF members links to retailers that had balls enough to sell N95 masks the CDC was intentionally depriving Americans of. I was supplying people who needed them discount codes for these retailers and manufacturers who were facing bankruptcy because the CDC wasn’t letting them sell the hundreds of millions of excess masks they had produced for the pandemic.

 

It depends upon how you use the data. You just don't "get it."

 

The data is not useful without age groups and preconditions.

 

By not addressing my point, you demonstrate you don't know.

I don't think so. You probably just paid for the care.

I asked if you know how Medicaid pays for skilled nursing care. If you did, then you'd understand why skilled nursing homes are unable to monitor a variety of mitigation measues.

You said you know I favor mandating vaccines. MMR vaccination for kids? Yes. Covid vaccination? Rarely, but I would for skilled nursing facilities.

You said: "I just wish there was as much concern for other risk factors as for vaccination status. It would save a lot of lives." I thought I would point out that I was looking at other mitigation measures.

 

You didn’t make a point. You made incorrect assumptions. Making incorrect assumptions isn’t a point.

Wrong again. She had her own assets. Most of the facilities she was in were primarily Medicaid “funded”. I’m well aware of how it works. Was friends with a lot of the employees etc. The “low income” folks you were on about in some cases!

Oh. You are getting around to the argument it’s cheaper to treat disease than prevent it! Bold argument. Won’t hold up to evidence though!

If you have a problem with funding for Medicare and Medicaid, that’s a different subject. If you believe disease prevention is more costly than treatment and lost revenue from disease I don’t really know where to start correcting that misconception.

We have ONLY discussed Covid vaccines. That’s all I’m referring to. If you want to move more goalposts that’s up to you. Just let me know…

You are certainly welcome to your opinions on skilled nursing facilities. Odd choice though when nursing home residents etc. are at just as or higher risk from infection.

I’m simply pointing out there are other very affordable mitigations one could mandate that would prevent more infections and reduce overall cost as well. Imagine the cost savings to a facility that had to pay less sick time, less costly health insurance, less costly negligence compensation/insurance, etc. by mandating something besides vaccination.

But it’s not about just money to me. I guess health and life is more important than money to me.

Sure. You mentioned another one you were told to care about. Furthermore proving my point.