"Courage"- a Catholic organization helping homosexuals

You were the one who brought up two gay people conceiving a child. Are you getting confused because your anti-gay stance is showing?

Thank you for showing us how anti-gay you are.

 

2 things...

1..this thread is about a Catholic organization.... and it's still being attacked by the left who are trying to get what they do outlawed....
2. you can't define legit therapy when based on lagenda. There are plenty of legit sexual behavior therapies out there that you aren't defining as wrong.... sex addicts is an example..... agenda doesn't define "legit vs illegit"

still their choice..... and it's not up to you to define if they are allowed to want to change or not.

why are you so afraid of freedom of choice? are you afraid it may expose your beliefs to be agenda driven when gays choose to become straight?

 

Nope it isn't up to me, however, I can point out that you cons have to manipulate folks into thinking there is something wrong with them in the first place. That's why it is a conjob.

 

manipulate people like this....


http://iotwreport.com/?p=274028


or do you only get upset whenever you think someone else does it....

 

Nope I don't agree with it and I have even commented on that one before when someone showed that in another thread.

Now, why is it you agree with shaming people? That's how these programs usually get people is they have been made to feel inferior or have been manipulated into thinking something is wrong with them. Why do you support such efforts, because that is what happens.

 

show me shaming them into agreeing to come to a Catholic group on their own accord. The kids in public schools didn't have an option.


Why do you hate freedom of choice so much?

 

The word "propaganda" exists for a reason.

 

Their parents, relatives, and/or friends do it. If you are THAT blind, that is on you.

I don't, what I hate is shaming someone into doing something, which you obviously agree with.

 

any time my child does something I define as wrong, I correct.... that's not shaming them

 

And there is nothing wrong with being homosexual. You might as well beat your kid for having blonde hair. And you're a teacher? My god I would withdraw my kid from your school immediately.

 

Not outlawed. It can claim anything it likes. It just can't be state licensed as a legitimate therapy because there's no evidence that it works as it claims. Even its most ardent original proponents are now saying it doesn't work. Nobody is trying to outlaw faith healing.

Did you mean to say agenda or Lagonda, my spell checker's not quite sure?

No, effectiveness defines legitimacy. Treatments to help people overcome sex addictions are often testable and the results observable even after accounting for variables.

No such thing has ever been proven in regard to "conversion" therapy. If it genuinely worked it would be testable and offered in either direction. Maybe there's some straight people out there who'd like to live a normal, healthy, gay lifestyle. Why doesn't the Catholic Church offer such therapy to them. Could it be that they're peddling morality not medicine?

People are absolutely allowed to want to change if they want. However, state licensing implies that the medical community supports the notion that there exist therapies which can testably prove that such change is possible. So far no such testable therapies have been uncovered. That might change. That's the thing about a scientific approach. Tomorrow can be different to today.

Nobody is. We just don't want the medical community deluding people that it's an informed choice.

No more than I'm afraid that alchemists will be able to find a way to turn lead into gold and I'm not trying to ban alchemy. I just don't want the "Society of Alchemists" to be elevated to the same level as the "Society of Geologists" unless they can prove that it actually can be done.

 

I don't think they are claiming to be state licensed. which brings us to the second part of this argument? Why can't a state licensed shrink offer therapy for this sexual behavior, but is allowed to for other sexual behaviors like sex addiction, etc.

 

Good because in that case: no harm no foul, nothing to see here. [/thread]!

Because there are no testable case studies proving that such therapies work and are therefore eligible to be state licensed as legitimate therapies.

Because there are testable case studies proving that such therapies work and are therefore eligible to be state licensed as legitimate therapies.

Do you believe Crystal Healers should be state licensed by the medical board?

Have I ever suggested Crystal Healers should be outlawed?

 

there are no testable case studies that say you were born gay. You can claim it.... but we have to take your word for it or not, just like you have to take the word of this guy

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gay-conver...w-im-happily-married-heterosexual-dad-1443188

that he was gay and converted to straight.


faith

 

and that is where it's simply your opinion

We're still waiting for any one of the studies to confirm the theory/hope that one is "born homosexual"

why is there a higher rate of attempted suicide among homosexuals compared with heterosexuals? And it's not because of "bullying"

Why are the ratios so out of line compared to heterosexuals when it comes to pedophilia? Why does it work out to a 1:8 ratio of pedophiles among homosexuals? It's not because of "bullying"

Why is there a higher HIV rate among homosexual males than among heterosexuals? It's not because of "bullying"

those are facts

does it mean that ALL homosexuals will attempt to kill themselves while molesting a little boy and catching HIV? Absolutely not.

Nobody but nobody ever suggests that.

what is discussed are the cold hard facts and for you to claim that "there is nothing wrong with homosexuals" is silly given the above facts.

I sincerely hope that some day science does discover the "gay gene" so it can be treated.

Any compassionate person would want that as it's based in love. Shouldn't everyone want to help those who have a tendency to try and kill themselves, contract a deadly disease or molest children?

"Courage", and groups like them are doing exactly that. At this point in time, it must be determined that living the gay lifestyle is simply a choice. So, any compassionate group would offer help to those homosexuals who want to change their ways. I do not understand why I've seen such hatred projected toward a group which has the sole focus of helping those who have chosen to live a potentially dangerous lifestyle.

 

I have never claimed that is "impossible" for a person's sexuality to change throughout their life. Nobody ever has.

There was a recent report of a person who had some kind of brain trauma after which he claimed to have turned gay even though he had been exclusively straight before.

That said let's look at the testimony provided at the end of your link:

People don't enter reparitive therapy by accident.

So he didn't voluntarily elect for conversion therapy?

So an "open ended" therapy not designed to arrive at a conditioned response may have had an effect on his own view of his own sexuality or was this actually conversion "therapy"?

How is that any different than people who have had numerous heterosexual partners and then realized they were gay all along?

Sounds like a bad case of self-inflicted stereotyping. Are there no gay people who are loud and aggressive and like war films and sports?

Many who have emerged the opposite have said the same thing.

Does this sound like a conscious choice?

Or this.

Seems reasonable.

Seems pretty self-assured at this point.

Sounds like he could have issues beyond his sexuality.

Some people feel the same way about Crystology.

He'd had 200 partners, who knew?

Sounds like a genuine enough issue. Maybe if it wasn't he'd have been able to stick with his boyfriend and live happily ever after?

He's moralizing he could have just said: a chasm between me and the normal male. Maybe that's internalized homophobia?

There is no mention here of who provided the therapy and if it was determinative or speculative.

Again, I'd like to know more about the therapist and the methods used.

This sounds like classic reparitive therapy guff but, again, without knowing anything about the therapist or their claims or motivations it's difficult to know.

Awful stereotyping again.

Even worse, almost relapse territory.

So the "therapist" set up and "ideal" which he could either live up to or "fail" to do so?

Utterly friggin bonkers, even Ian McKellan can make himself sound like Magneto if he's trying to play a role.

Or leading you up the garden path.

Or compliance.

Which actually leads to the conclusion that he actually was "born gay" and then did everything to appear to himself and others that he wasn't.

Possibly but let's keep reading.....

I know quite a few gay men who are far more noble than me. Suggesting that they can't be once again enforces bad stereotypes.

A lot of gay men enjoy being men too.

Maybe he was bisexual all along but why don't you hear praise being heaped on those who use therapy to go in the opposite direction? I think it's because this is "moral" medicine.

Same was said of many of the leaders of the US ex-gay movement.

Again, self-reliance on bad stereotypes.

I'm sure gay people who are comfortable with their own sexuality are capable of those very same things. I have very close male friends who are gay.

Echoing the sentiments of many of those ex-gay leaders I spoke of before: "well you never completely leave your sexual attractions behind"...really?

So he still finds men attractive but because he doesn't have sex with them he's heterosexual because he left the "lifestyle" behind. Hmmm.. where have I heard that before?

HIV is only a "drawback" to people who contract HIV and again with the terrible stereotypes.

...not a legitimate theraputic goal.

Speculation. Many gay people live long and happy lives. If you have over 200 partners and don't practice safe sex, maybe not so much?

Again, rampant speculation and not inherently indicative of "being gay"

It seems this person is confused not only about being gay but also about being transgender?

Good.

So we agree, we won't take our kids to conversion therapy until they're old and informed enough to choose it for themselves.

Not everybody has a hidden Identity and I think it's kind of arrogant to presume they do especially given what we've just read on the page laid out before us.

================================================================

OK, so I've spent the best part of an hour responding to your post. Want to spend a little time responding to mine?

 

How does it do that?

From what I read and what I understand about twelve step programs it requires magic and voodoo.

So please explain how it works. Is God supposed to magic you out of being gay? Just asking because the first step is give up because you're powerless.

So explain to me how it works. I'm interested.

 

you could not be any further from the truth than the above

Nobody is looking to stop you from marrying a garage door if you want. Where you get push back is when you make demands that we must provide flowers or a cake for the wedding with the garage door

About trying to convert you. That is also a farce.

"Courage" and programs like that are there for you when you realize that your sexual lifestyle decision was a bad one. Nobody is looking to tie you up and drag you to a program trying to convince you to kick the habit. You must want to in order for it to be effective.

With respect to "trying to convert"

It's not Christians who are telling 14 year-old teen girls that teen boys can now shower with them

It's not Christians who use the govt to force a homosexual to write the words "gays are going to Hell" onto a cake

and the list goes on

there is a saying.........."he who lives in glass houses.............."

it would behoove you to understand what that means

 

There doesn't need to be laws to protect religious business practices. That's called special privileges.

 

I would say that given the depth of the poster's typical argument. You wasted a better part of an hour.

 

I wish that was true across the whole country. Unfortunately, right now, it's not.

 

So Christians haven't been trying to stopping gay marriage from getting state recognition? that's a surprise from me as there are many threads and government actions from Christians saying otherwise. Care to explain?

Really, churches don't try to convert people? Are you saying door to door and advertisement isn't meant o convert people? Why do you lie?

So children aren't forced by their parents to attend a program you describe? That's good news because people have been supportive of doing just that from your group. So are you saying it is just adults that go to this program you describe? Be honest because your "god" is watchin you if you lie.

So no children are forced by their parents to attend? Remember god is watching you if you lie.

You must not have seen the threads where Christians have indeed wanted to force anti-gay wording put on cakes.

Well keep listing since your others were weak sauce.

that's hilarious since YOUR religion has allowed and moved Child molestors. Maybe you should clear your OWN house before worrying about homosexuals that aren't of your religion.

Yes we know what that means. Your side is full of hypocrites and you would do well to worry about them before worry about other homosexuals.

 

Yes, and the Vatican is full of chaste men of god. Just many of whom also happen to frequent gay clubs.

And specifically regarding this quote of yours, this is either a lie or ignorance about what you speak. I have already provided you quotes from "COURAGE"'s website which state that they do not support attempts to change people's sexuality, and that the goal is for the people to be chaste. Not live "normal, fulfilling, heterosexual lives". You are misrepresenting them. There are no long term studies any of these programs have offered on their effectiveness. If two people suffering from the same feelings of guilt and oppression can find each other and get through it together, well maybe some good can come from it. That's about the best I can say for them.

 

While the article was full of eye-rolling stereotypes that don't apply to, for example, me or many of the other gay people I know, it did have one good statement. The idea that sexuality is fluid. That I can agree with. I don't think that it can be described as an on-off switch, or as a dichotomy, but a spectrum. It can't be changed, per se, but rather influenced. That much I think we can all agree with. But what we also know is that attempts to therapeutically intervene and cause change have been utter failures, with even the most ardent supporters admitting years later to the failure of their programs. The best we can do is provide support to people, not cast judgment. If a person wants to explore their sexuality, wants to "try being straight", or whatever, they should not be discouraged from doing so... but they should also not be told that they SHOULD do so. They should simply be supported to find their happiness. If there are underlying issues, those should be addressed as well, of course. Some people may experience a change, the vast majority probably will not,. I'm happy for them in either case, wherever they find their fulfillment.

 

Good point, but, in all honesty, gun control has a "end game" if you will, at least a method in order to achieve its goal.

This program in its first step says give up your powerless. That isn't the first step of breaking addiction. It's actually the exact opposite. It's "take control, only you have the power to change things."

What do you think would occur if you told a heroin addict to give up because they are powerless? They already did that, that's why they are addicts. Notice that AA And other such programs don't publish their results.

If you look at step two it's to submit to a higher power. That isn't necessary or even helpful to break addiction. The second step should be to halt the behavior, be it drinking or smoking, so forth.

It's a recruiting ploy. Weak people are easier to control.

MOD EDIT - Rule 3