For Immediate Release - July 4, 2012

sorry, resolutions aren't international law, treaties are. the UN isn't a governing body.

 

Just keep in mind that such a "solution" was never considered by any Israeli gov and its supported by very few of the pop, I mean not even all settlers think like that.

 

That will never happen, not in a long shot, and forget about "helping" the Palestinians relocate to Jordan cause Israelis will never do that,

When we clear the table from fantasies and wishful thinking we see only peace as solution, all Israeli gov see that, the right is trying to get a larger piece of the pie but it realizes that we will have to withdraw at some point, sooner or later the public will demand it of the gov like we do now on economics - and its working...


Hamas remains a problem but if we do this right it will not be just our problem but the Arab's problem too, unless it embraces peace.

HBendor, as an ex- Infantry soldier, now in reserves, I can tell you that we are tired of police work on civilians, it goes no-where, Israel may need to take the first step but what ever will happen at some point it will resolve in peace.

 

I am for free commerce with all nations, political connection with none, and little or no diplomatic establishment. And I am not for linking ourselves by new treaties with the quarrels of Europe, entering that field of slaughter to preserve their balance, or joining in the confederacy of Kings to war against the principles of liberty. -- Thomas Jefferson

 

People immigate all of the time. If we were to estalbish that "immigrants" were required to move back to the country of their origin then yes former Jordanians would have to return to Jordan but then former European Jews would also have to move back to Europe. It would also require the return of the 400,000 to 700,000 non-Jewish former residents and citizens and their heirs that fled "Israel" in 1948 to return to Israel.

We could address this as an issue of "illegal immigration" but there comes a point where regardless of how someome comes to live in a land when whether they were "legal" or "illegal" immigrants becomes moot. Certainly if a child is born then they are natural born citizens of the land where they were born based upon Jus Soli. Governments should limit their own restrictions on immigration as well. While prohibiting convicted criminals from immigrating into a country can be understandable there should never be a limitation on law-abiding people from immigrating. Immgratation should never be limited based upon ethnic/race/religious critera.

Has anyone in Israel considered that the Jordanian immigrants to Palestine moved from Jordan to excape the tyranny of the monarchy in Jordan? Would anyone be opposed to that? Didn't many Jews move to Israel to excape the tyranny of European governments?

I've addressed this before in other threads stating uncategorically that Jews that were forced from Arab-Muslim countries should be allowed the Right of Return and recourse to the courts to recover their losses regardless of whether they choose to return or not. Were the governments of the Arab-Muslim nations that forced their Jewish population from their territories imposing the tyranny of "aparthied" in their actions? Absolutely and they are justifiable condemned for it just as Israel should be condemned for the same actions. I have always condemned the tyranny of governments regardless of which country commits it.

Tyranny by one government does not justify tyranny by another government. Israel cannot control the tyranny of other governments but it can control it's own actions and eliminate the violations of the inalienable Rights of the People under it's authority. It is time for the residents and citizens of Israel to demand that it's own government stop acts of tyranny just as I. an American citizen, continually demand that my own government stop it's actions which violate the Rights of the People. As individuals we must take a stand against our government's actions which violate the inalienable Rights of the Individual. We're individually responsible for doing that.

 

Baloney... You are tired of reserve duty???? I am offering a solution to people like you to go relax!

Do you believe that Jordan was created out of 77% of the original Mandate that was supposed to be THE JEWISH HOMELAND?

Well if you do not know go read about it. Wherever, whenever the Limey Brits were... untold problems were always in sight.

 

My argument was not about that but about whether international laws were broken (not that any country in the world gives a flying f&ck about international law).The Arabs rejected the partition , they still view Palestine as one entity, they have therefore no legal basis to object against people moving within that entity from one town (i.e. Tel Aviv) to another (i.e. Ramallah).

The Arabs are trying to have it both ways - their argument against settlments is "we reject the partition but you are not allowed to move to our partition". It does not work like that in the real world or the courts.

 

When the Jordanians conquered Judea and Samaria led by British officers they had one goal, conquer, kill, dismantle, trample, destroy, RAPE and rapine... The Arabs from Jordan followed in the wake of the victorious Jordanian army. Where is the immigration here Sir?
It seems to me that once again you were not prepared when you wrote the above.

This is laughable has any one tried to get a drop of blood out of an Arab stone? You are an ideologue and not a pragmatist.

 

This is false. The British Mandate for Palestine did not advocate the creation of a Jewish State but instead endorsed the migration of Jews to Palestine to share those lands with the existing population. The Mandate specifically prohibited the violations of the civil Rights of the existing population which was completely ignored by the Zioninst movement and Jewish immigrants to Palestine.

The British Mandate called for the sharing of Palestine as a homeland with the existing population by Jews predominately from Europe. Had the British Mandate been followed there would have been a single State of Palestine that was comprised of the People without any ethnic/racial/religious criteria. The Mandate was a "One-State" solution without any inviduous discrimination being allowed.

 

I disagree... here is part of the PREAMBLE... I am sure you know how to read English and comprhend it...

The Council of the League of Nations:
Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have agreed, for the purpose of giving effect to the provision of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, to entrust to a Mandatory selected by the said powers the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them ; and
Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country ; and
Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the ground for reconstituting their national home in that country ; and

WHAT IS THE MEANING OF RECONSTITUTING? It means to RE establish what was ONCE lost... Ask me and I will publish the rest of the Articles.

Even the Brits recognized the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine .

 

I know that, consider the possibility that they aim high in order to get less,


Right or wrong here we are, I trust Abu Mazen wants peace, I know he can accept Israel (really accept it) because he made similar announcements before, the smartest thing we can do is grab him and use his world support to have an agreement with or without Hamas, Its possible Abu Mazen wont advance without Hamas, if so there is nothing we can do, but its obvious that Bibi is leaning toward the settelers and continues to build in the west bank (I know its just internal expansions, its still a bad gesture), we have reasons not to advance peace talks and reasons to advance them, i support the pragmatic approach.

 

Not tired as in "what's in it for me" but in the sense that soldiers are not supposed to handle civilians for 40+ years!, the reality where Israeli citizens in uniform guard Palestinian civilians need to be stopped!

You wont argue the Palestinians out of existence, you can excuse the present by actions in the past but it has no bearing on the future and what we should do.

withdraw from occupied land is not surrendering, we are doing it from a place of power not weakness, I know we can hold it for another 40 years the question is why?

 

It is our land, our Archeological sites, the tombs of the patriarchs, the land in its totality is Jewish, the land is the inheritance of ALL, and I mean ALL THE JEWISH PEOPLE ON THIS EARTH... how dare you decide for the rest of the Jews... There are still seven million JEWS contemplating making Aliyah... where would you put them?

 

The world is full of Roman Catholics. Where would you put them all, in Rome? Your archaeological arguments-which are all you have-are entirely fatuous. Archaeological relics do not confer automatic rights to a piece of land-no matter how much you wish it to be true.

 

Your pragmatic solution is once again bend down to the Arabs and get screwed... I belong to another kind of pragmatic people face reality and stand your ground... Abou Mazen is a wishy washy Arab that speaks with a forked tongue... he is like Arafat we want Peace and what he meant is PIECE by PIECE to dismantle Israel... Your attitude will close the doors to aliyah and open a wide door to Arabs to overwhelm us. It is not enough that I am fighting pro Arab Nazis on this board, now I have to explain myself to my own people.

 

Your theories are yours and not ours... we respect our heritage. <<< MODERATOR EDIT: OFF TOPIC/FLAMEBAIT >>>
VIDEO

http://www.stepupforisrael.com/?play

 

Im not "deciding" im placing my vote and explain it, we have a country, there are human beings that live near the Archeological sites whose rights should be kept, it more important to live by Bible humanitarian laws and respect your neighbor than act against it in its name,

As Ben Gurion - a true Zionist once said - we need to develop the Negev, and as I said, the disputed area doesn't not hold that many Israelis, about Jerusalem we can share it, east Jerusalem will need to be agreed upon but in general i think we can agree.

 

Your heritage in European. <<< Mod Edit: Flamebaiting >>>

 

If the heritage of Jews was European you would never discuss Jews today would you?

 

People who think like you DO NOT HAVE A COUNTRY. Do not have a National Hymn, do not have a heritage, do not have history nor archeology... to speak and think this way is no solution, it is surrender to the enemy, it is Joseph Ben Matatiahu (Josephus Flavious) in America they call that a Benedict Arnold.

 

Oh I have a country, I have a glorious heritage etched in history books and in archeology finds, the Jewish story will continue long after we are gone I just want to give our children a good start, we sit on our land, its an historical moment, we have our capital of old and now its time to jump forward, what will happen in the future no one can tell, y'know, when Begin signed the peace treaty with Egypt he was asked if this treaty will hold "forever", he said if peace treaties held forever than so many of them would never be signed in the course of history,

We obviously disagree but my approach is not from a weak place, its from a strong one and im not "gifting" the Palestinians anything, they dwelled here for possibly 1000's of years.....

 

Apparently this warning is being ignore by both sides of the discussion so I'm closing the thread.

Once again we had a good topic for respectful debate that has been destroyed by members who can't be respectful of other members. That's a pity.

Shiva_TD
Site Moderator