From Atheism To Faith In God ~ The Unbelieving Scientist And The Creationist

My response is that it is mathematically proven that what is possible is inevitable with enough tries. The problem with some people's thinking is that they see sees nature and non-intelligent events as random. But randomness is just our label for things we can't explain. Even a dice roll only appears random simply because we don't understand all the forces around it. If we did, no dice roll or coin flip would be random.

Nature is deterministic and is composed of forces that act in predictable directional ways. For example, the force of gravity forces things down, not randomly. Gravity will pull large amounts of hydrogen gas in nebulas together into stars, not randomly. These directional ways are non-intelligent but they aren't at all random. Natural selection and mutations are examples of directional forces that are far from random and build complexity because they are directional.

But even if the above wasn't true at all, we know evolution happened. We can clearly see life evolve today and we can see them evolve in the past in the fossil record from a common ancestor. Even if we had no idea how it happened, even if it was a complete bizarre mystery how it happened, we know life evolved from the evidence.

 

GMAFB with this evangelical BS! Reads like the text from a Chic comix episode.

Look folks, there is the faith of science and the faith of religion. Never the twain shall meet, but sometimes they call each other on the phone.

What I'm getting at is that atheistic scientist believe their methodology will eventually solve all questions in life...until then they just dismiss any other answers. Dogmatic religious believers dismiss any physical evidence that belies the dictates of their scriptures. Both are just plain stubborn.

There is a middle ground....perhaps one day mankind in general will acknowlege that.

 

Thanks for answering my question.

People are different.
I will stand with my statement that says this:
"If it is possible, then given enough tries, it is inevitable, but the absurd is not possible."___JAG
And I will keep my position that those "absurd" numbers I produced all coming up 6's at some point
given enough tries is absurd and would never happen.
Of course the notion is theoretical anyway -- there is no such thing as , , , ,
999,999,999,999,999,999 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999, trillion
to the power of
999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999, 999,999,999,999,999,999,999, trillion DICE
and so this mental exercise will never have any Real World status.


JAG


``

 

Biochemistry is not chance, making the calculated odds meaningless.

 

I mentioned no "biochemistry" -- my "numbers thingy"
was about Dice and "absurd" numbers and is not
necessarily connected to Evolution.

JAG

``

 

It appears you did not read the OP and my follow-up-posts.

The OP is a story I made up about the conversion of a
man to faith in the Lord Jesus as his Savior and the OP
said nothing about the man ceasing to believe in Evolution.

Moreover I posted this in this thread:

But here is the important point: It does not matter to this Christian
if they DO find a true "missing link" between "a Ronald Reagan" and
a Chimp and if they prove it at the certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4 -- I will
then thank God for creating Mankind using Evolution.

It would NOT bother me if science proves at the certainty-level that
Abiogenesis is actually true -- and that totally dead material can
spontaneously come to life --- that life CAN and DID come from
non-life. If scientists DO prove that at the certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4
-- then I will thank God that He created Mankind through Abiogenesis.

_______________


I also have an OP here at PF, wherein I said this this:

I do NOT say that Evolution is not true.

Theistic Evolution may be the way it happened.
My view is that it has NOT been scientifically proved
that the one-celled speck in the Primordial Slime eventually
became "Oprah Winfrey" and "Joe Biden" , ,

, , but, , ,

, , Evolution is not a crucial issue for the Christian anyway.

Millions of us say Evolutionists have NOT scientifically proved
that "George W. Bush" started off as a single-celled speck that
"came up out of the Slime" -- but even if they do, one day, prove
that it happened that way, So what? Who cares?

We Christians will forever believe in the God that created the highly
complex Human Person, the highly complex Human Brain, the highly
complex Human Eye, the highly complex Earth, the highly complex
Universe, and all that exists --- how He did it, is interesting but it has
zero to do with our Faith in God , ,,

, , , repeat , , ,

how He did it, is interesting but it has zero to do with
our Faith in God , ,,

"Have Faith in God."___The Lord Jesus {Mark 11:22}

_____________


I am a Creationist.
I just do not know for a fact HOW God did it.
I don't believe anybody knows for certain exactly HOW He did it.

JAG


``

 

Again, the problem with your assertion is that you assume nature is random. Nature isn't random at all. Randomness is an illusion and is just stuff we don't understand and can't predict yet.

Your argument is like saying that the probability that every apple in the planet will all go down instead of other directions is extremely small. It misses the point about the deterministic, directional, and force-based nature of our reality.

 

I'm way past all that now.

Who cares?

I don't care if Nature is random or not random. I know that
nature is not intelligent and THAT is all I need to know
about nature and the "random thingy."

Also I don't have an "argument" -- I don't believe that :"absurd"
numbers of Dice will all come up 6's given enough tries -- but
if you want to believe that --that's just peachy fine with me.
I will not believe it unless God Himself tells me its true.

I have learned stuff from these Evolution threads and from
reading stuff on the web --- for example I have come to know
that I don't care one way of the other about HOW God did
it -- ALL I care about is my locked-down Faith in God that
God DID it.

But BEFORE I got involved in these threads I DID care
and I looked at Evolution differently than I now look at it.

I LOVE The Concept Of Gradual Progress , , ,
I am a Creationist that does not know for certain HOW God
did it, and I find that interesting. If God DID it through Evolution
then I will find that really Ultra-Interesting and even MORE a
magnificent achievement -- for one thing I LOVE the concept
of Gradual Progress -- I am a Christian Postmillennialist and
the Central Principle of Postmillennialism is Gradual Progress,
so if Evolution is actually true -- I will be "right at home" with it.

Thanks for your posts on the subject.

Best.

JAG

``

 

Lets say I grab myself a tornado and run it through a junkyard, and even if I do that forever, it will never produce a star. Same with all those monkeys writing out Shakespeare. Monkeys aren't able to patiently sit at a desk and type. Or a watch on the ground. There is simply no natural process that can take metal out of the ground, heat it up, and intricately put it together. Or lets imagine some bacteria in a puddle and you want them to digest nylon. You can zap them with electricity all you want because they will never be able to do it.

So how why can't they do these things? Is it because non-intelligent processes simply can't do this because randomness and change doesn't make complexity? No. Non-intelligent processes are determinist and not random at all. The problem is that the processes I mentioned before simply don't even have the properties to make these complex things. They are deterministic and there is no deterministic way for them to do this.

But that doesn't mean other forces and non-intelligent processes can't. For example, lets look at the tornado in the junkyard creating a star. Well, instead of you have a bunch of hydrogen gas in space, gravity will gradually pull that gas together into stars, and we have actual photos of that happening. Or lets look in the bacteria in the puddle that can't digest nylon. Well, we have actually seen bacteria evolve that with mutations and natural selection.

If you believe that evolution is God's tool, then there is certainly nothing inaccurate about that. In fact most evolutionists in the US are Christian. I personally don't believe in Christianity because of a lack of evidence, and I don't see any evidence God was involved in evolution. But at least theistic evolution doesn't conflict with the scientific evidence like creationism does.

Its possible that genesis was an allegory for evolution. Each day, you see God slowly add new things to the earth, even though he was perfectly able to make it with a snap of his finger. Imagine ancient people, and trying to explain to them about science, evolution, genetics, the age of the earth, and the big bang. Maybe God wanted us to learn that for ourselves. So maybe he instead gave us a simple moral story of the creation of the world that was just a children's way of understanding that God is our creator. We simply weren't ready to learn how God created the universe yet. He wanted us to figure that out for ourselves when humanity grew up.

 

But you "know" there's a "God", right?

My response stands valid.

 

That is correct, I do know there is a God.
And so do you. So do all men. There is no
such thing as an atheist.

Romans 1:18 says that people "suppress the truth"
about what they know about God.

Then , ,

Romans 1:18-20 says clearly that you and all men know
there is a God.

Romans 1:18-20 , ,
"since what may be known about God is plain to them,
because God has made it plain to them. For since the
creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal
power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being
understood from what has been made, so that people
are without excuse.___Romans 1:18-20

Add , , ,

Psalm 19:1-4 also teaches that you and all men know
there is a God.

Psalm 19:1-4 , , ,
"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim
the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge. They have no speech,
they use no words; no sound is heard from them. Yet their voice
goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the
world. In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun."
___Psalm 19:1-4


So? , , ,

"I Am My Own god"___John Atheist
, , , So all men know there is a God but they "suppress the truth"
about what they know so they can eliminate the God that created
them from their lives and can then become their own god. "To be
their own god" is the motivation behind The Religion Of Atheism
and is what "drives it" and is what created it.

The Religion Of Atheism is at bottom The Religion Of Self-Rule
And Self-Rule will end in the death and destruction of the soul.
It ends in with the "perish" of John 3:16
"for God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son
that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have Eternal
Life"__John 3:16
{1} believe on the Lord Jesus and get Eternal Life
{2} refuse to believe and perish

Incorrect.
Your response does not stand valid. My response to your
complaints more than eliminated the need for those
particular complaints and anyone who is reading this
thread knows it.

By the way, didn't you bring up the notion of just being
stubborn? Any one who reads what you wrote and then
reads my response to what you wrote, KNOWS that I
eliminated your complaints. Its all up-thread for all to
see.

__________

One more thing:

"GMAFB with this evangelical BS! Reads like
the text from a Chic comix episode."___Kungfuliberal
That was a very nice thing to say, wasn't it. That was a
polite and courteous thing to say. It demonstrated that
you have kindness in your heart and human compassion
and that you always treat other people like you would
want to be treated.

_______________

Bible Verse For Today:

"what I received I passed on to you as of first importance:
that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day
according to the Scriptures."___1 Corinthians 15:3-4


JAG

``

 

Completely and utter wrong!

EVERYONE is BORN an atheist!

 

So if you had been born and brought up by atheists on a desert island you would have known there was a god. You get more ridiculous.

 

Agreed.

Agreed..

Agreed.
I used the Working Rolex Watch as being equivalent in
complexity to the combination of the Human Brain,
Human Eye, and Human Physical Body System,
and the Entire-Earth-System -- which all together is
MORE complex than a Working Rolex Watch.

I will take your word for that.
That's out of my league.

Those words ~ ~ "are determinist" and "not random" are
THE major key words. Anything that is "deterministic"
requires intelligence. Nature is not intelligent and so
nature, 100% by herself alone, is not "deterministic"
and IS therefore "random."

Of course it all depends on what YOU mean when you
use the words "deterministic" and "random." People,
regularly DO use words and give them their own
personal connotations.

In my world only Intelligence has the ability to make a
determination about anything and in my world if there
is no Intelligence that determines -- then whatever
happens is random and MUST be random. I use
the word "random" as roughly equivalent to the
word "chance."

So?

So no intelligence = no-determination = random = chance

???
In my world no intelligence = no-determination = random = chance

I will take you at your word on that. That's out of my league
also.
In my world no intelligence = no-determination = random = chance

Noted.

Give this below a careful read , , ,
You must have supernatural help to come to believe
in Christianity. Christianity is a personal relationship with
a Person --- that Person's name is the Lord Jesus. You
need His help in order to believe. He will help you through
the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit --- if you sincerely
ask Him to help you. Your problem is not that you do not
have evidence for Christianity --- nobody has that because
Christianity is a Faith -- your problem is the same problem
that ALL unbelievers have, namely they desire to be their
"own god" which means they desire Self-Rule. You MUST
come to the "end of that" and arrive at the place where you
"are teachable" --- here at this point the Holy Spirit will help
you and He will teach you how to come to faith in the Lord
Jesus as your Savior -- all you have to do is sincerely ask
Him for His help.
If you ever DO come to this point and if you pray the very
simple child-like sinner's prayer , , ,

" Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask for Your
forgiveness. I believe You died for my sins and rose from
the dead. I turn from my sins and invite You to come into
my heart and life. I want to trust and follow You as my
Lord and Savior."

, , , your whole and entire life and world will be marvelously
and wonderfully "turned up-side down" for the better. You'll
love it over here on this side. Its quite an adventure.

Noted.
And I find that fascinating, I truly do.
When you become a Christian be sure to plunge into
Postmillennialism. You'll love it. Postmillennialism
is orthodox Bible believing Gradual Process Future-ism
that allows for Huge Grand Magnificent Gradual Processes
that will "evolve" the Human Race to unbelievable heights.

My Postmillennialism is significantly philosophical --
Postmillennial Philosophy cuts through all the endless
haggling about details and goes to the heart and soul
of what really matters with regards to the Future of God's
Human Race Project.

Check out , , ,
"Abundance : The Future Is Better Than You Think"
by Peter H. Diamandis and Steven Kotler.
Here are a few quotes from the blurbs on the back
cover:

"This brilliant must-read book provides the key to the
coming era of abundance replacing eons of scarcity.
Abundance is a powerful antidote to today's malaise
and pessimism."___Ray Kurzweil

"This is an audacious and powerful read! Abundance shows
us how today's philanthropists, innovators, and passionate
entrepreneurs are more empowered than ever before to solve
humanity's grand challenges."___ Jeff Skoll

"Our world faces multiple crises and is awash in pessimism.
Abundance redirects the conversation. spotlighting scientific
innovators working to improve people's lives. The result is
more than a portrait of brilliant minds -- it's a reminder of the
infinite possibilities for doing good when we tap into our own
empathy and wisdom."___ Arianna Huffington

____________

"Its Getting Better All The Time: 100 Greatest Trends Of
The Last 100 Years, by Stephen Moore and Julian Simon.

Here are a couple of comments from the blurbs:

"A refreshing breath of optimism and sanity amidst all the
gloom and doom."__John Stossel
ABC News

"This book is so chock full of good news that it's virtually
guaranteed to cheer up even the clinically depressed.
Moore and Simon dismantle the doomsday pessimism
that's still so commonplace in academia and the media.
The evidence they present is irrefutable: Give people
freedom and free enterprise and the potential for human
progress is seemingly limitless."__Lawrence Kudlow, Chief
Economist, CNBC

Victory!

I read each and every word of that 2 times
and very carefully too. That is very interesting to
me. You have an interesting mind. You will make
a good Christian theologian , , wait ,, you will make
a good Christian philosopher-theologian/with a "sciency"
emphasis. You have clearly been searching for the
truth for a significant period of time. Keep searching
and you will eventually find it , ,

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will
find; knock and the door will be opened to you."
__The Lord Jesus {Matthew 7:7}


Best.


JAG

``

 

Anybody else notice how JAG's writing style changes dramatically within the same post. Methinks he is cutting and pasting from somewhere. Methinks he may even be a bot.

I am curious how one asks somebody they don't believe exists for help. Seems the writer is trying to slip in some circular reasoning here. You have to believe before you can believe.

 

Look closely. Most of them have their mouths open. None of them are wearing masks. They are pushing Covid on us!

And look at the one on the right of the photo holding the other one down and beating him. #PediatricBrutality.

 

Probably getting ready to eat him because atheists eat babies, right?

 

I just a moment ago, came across this jewel as I was
reading a post.

"I like the sign over the science building where
I went to college. “science walks with humble
feet to seek the God that faith has found”
___John Doe

JAG.

____________


Bible Verse For Today:
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find;
knock and the door will be opened to you."
___The Lord Jesus Matthew 7:7



``

 

You don't want to debate, you just want to proselytize. See, Creationist think they're clever in trying to patronize evolutionary theorists....but with a little nudge they quickly revert to using the convoluted "logic" of having a book of scripture prove itself true based solely on faith. That goes only so far until physical evidence starts putting dates on what forms of life existed on earth.....which doesn't coincide with the extrapolations of man's (homo-sapien) appearance....hell, creationist explaining the physical evidence of the cro-magnon and neantderthal is a laugh riot to behold.

Maybe one day the chicken or the egg question will be answered....but it may not be as the scientist thinks, and it may not be the "God" the creationist believe exists. Me, I'm going to have a beer, learn to share and be nice to people, and just try to get through the next day (God willing and the creek don't rise!).

 

You are mistaken, I debate all the time. You are not familiar
with my posting history, otherwise you would not say that.

That is your personal spin word to make proclaiming Biblical truths
look like a bad thing, when it is not a bad thing at all. As a Christian
I have an obligation to God to proclaim His Biblical truths and there
is nothing wrong with me doing that - - - ESPECIALLY since we are
in the Religion Department of the Forum. Question: What do you think
the Religion Department is for -- if not to proclaim one's religions beliefs?

And what do you think "go an make disciples of all nations" means?
The Lord Jesus told His Christian Church to go and make disciples
of all nations {at the end of Matthew chapter 28} -- how can we
do that if we do not proclaim Bible truths to others?

You are not familiar with what I have posted on the subject of Evolution
otherwise you would not have posted that. You are assuming that I
believe what you think I believe -- and you are incorrect in your
assumptions.

I do not do that. You assume you know what i believe. You do not
know.

That has nothing to do with what I believe.

Noted.

"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say,
'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors
and sinners.' But wisdom is proved right by her deeds."
___The Lord Jesus Matthew 11:19

So?

So you're in good company {as long as you do not drink
to much}

"And do not forget to do good and to share with others,
for with such sacrifices God is pleased."___Hebrews 13:16

Three cheers for Kungfuliberal.

I appreciate that.
Does that mean you will no longer post such as this? , , , ,
"GMAFB with this evangelical BS! Reads like
the text from a Chic comix episode."___Kungfuliberal

May the Lord Bless you always.
May the Lord always Keep you safe.
May the Lord always make His Face to shine upon you.
May the Lord always be Gracious unto you.
May the Lord always turn His Face towards you.
May the Lord always give you His Peace.
May the Lord always Protect you.
May the Lord always Protect all those you love.
{based on Numbers 6:22-26}

Best.


JAG


``

 

Thanks for proving my point, Jag. And you did it point for point..no "spin" necessary, as you do it so eloquently yourself for anyone with a GED in English Composition. And like I said, I "try" to be nice to people....until they try to condescend to me...as some evangelicals are want to do. Keep on thumping, kid. Adios.

 

Creationism takes the Bible story literal so the OP mischaracreruzes it.

 

Incorrect.
The OP is not an argument for Creationism and not an argument for anything.
The OP is a fictionalized story I wrote to illustrate the amazing grace of God
to save repentant sinners, one of whom was a scientist. By the way, the
OP's story does not say that the scientist repudiated Evolution when he
became a Christian.

As an aside , , , ,
One can be a Creationist and at the same time believe in Evolution and
there are a significant number of Christians that are Creationists and that
do believe Evolution is correct.

JAG


``

 

And you're fictionalized stories misrepresents the ideals that creationists have. Your story involves a creationist who does not take the Bible and it stories literally this is not a thing. Creationist take the stories in the Bible including the Genesis story in a literal form. They believe in a literal talking snake. They also believe the story of the flood and Noah's ark literally, believing that one man built a ship collected billions of animals and then put them on that ship.

the conversation taking place in your story is not something that would take place with a creationist

 

Incorrect.

I did not prove your point.

You did in fact put your Spin on what I wrote.

You did in fact ignore all the points I made.

You did in fact misunderstand the OP

My view is you use the word "condescend" in order to
keep Evangelicals silent because you do not want to hear
what we have to say.

condescend - show feelings of superiority; be patronizing.

When I present my Evangelical views that is no more
condescending than you presenting your Liberal views.

I do not have any feeling of superiority over anybody. I am
only one man standing up for what he believes is the truth
and proclaiming it inside the Religion Department of a Forum.

And I am not a "kid" and I am not "thumping."

Are you a kid?

Are you thumping?

Why is it that I am a "kid" but YOU are not a "kid"?

Why is it that I am "thumping" and YOU are not "thumping'?

Why is that?

Are you superior to me?

"keep on thumping kid"___Kungfuliberal
Now THAT remark is condescending for certain.

Here is another of your condescending remarks:
"GMAFB with this evangelical BS! Reads like
the text from a Chic comix episode."___Kungfuliberal

JAG


Thought For Today
Secularists are , , ,
"always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth"
__2 Timothy 3:7


``