Gaza started shooting rockets on Israel cities again

How can I answer when you wont explain your mis-quoting? You told me I said one thing and yet Ive proved i said something different. I will answer your query when you explain yourself as to whether or not this was another mistake, now will you?

But the US had a number of different armies fighting for it in WW2 did it not?

No a military includes people who fight on sea, in the air or on land. An army fights on land. And you still cant say whether or not the Hagganah was an organised military force yes or no? Are you going to say yes or no?

 

Because my question I asked you is part of the answer, please answer.

Of course, BUT all of those different companies was part of the US military, so actually, those armies, you are talking about, is not a separate army from the US army, is part of it, If you wouldnt had it part of the US military, so the US army would not be existing.

You can refer the IDF is an Israeli army like the IDF is an Israeli military, you would refer the IDF or any army in the world, as both names, and when you do it, you just support the thing that "army" and "military" is the same thing.
I already answered you,
Here is the 3rd time I'm answering you:
NO, the Hagannah is not a military,

 

You have not explained why you only partially quoted me, was this a mistake or deliberate? Until I get an explanation I dont know if you will now mis-quote me again. How can I trust you?

But they are armies, just as the Hagannah is an army.

The IDF is the Israeli military. Not just its army.

Its a simple question. Was the Hagannah an organised military force yes or no? Are you just a not so straightforward guy who refuses to answer easy questions?

 

And I already told you, that the question I asked you is part of the answer, so if you would like that I would answer you, YOU need to answer me.

BUT if you would not have those companies that you had and still having in the US army, it means that the US could not be anymore, and that means that those armies (companies) that you wrote, is part of the US army, and not separate from him. Its not like the Hagannah.

Why dont you read?
Here is my answer:

 

But you did not explain your misquoting in your answer. You did not explain your misquoting at all, you did not explain why you missed out that I said that they are the same in the sense of being valuable. I cant trust you if you cant answer why you mis-quoted me.

But those parts of the US military were armies, the seventh and the third. You have not addressed that so again you are dodging.

I have read you but I only asked you if the Hagannah is an organised military force, I did not ask if the Hagannah was the military, I asked you if the hagannah was an organised military force, now will you say yes or no? Why are you not answering?

 

I need you to answer my question, if you want a whole answer.
BUT if you dont want a full answer so if the wallet and the money is NOT the same thing, and you cant buy shirt with the wallet, and just with the money, it doesnt metter how much valuable it ism because even if the money and the wallet are valuable, it doesnt erase the differences between them.

I addressed what you wrote to me, you just ignored it, and continue to "copy-paste" what you've been already written.
ONCE AGAIN:
BUT if you would not have those companies that you had and still having in the US army, it means that the US could not be anymore, and that means that those armies (companies) that you wrote, is part of the US army, and not separate from him. Its not like the Hagannah.

First of all- if you say that the Hagannah is a military force, it means that you refering the Hagannah was a military.

Secondly- I answered you already, the Hagannah was not military or like you want me to write it- military force.

 

That is now three times you have refused to explain your deception or admit your mistakes. Ive given you plenty of chances. All you had to do was in the last example give a yes or no. You refused, the discussion is over. PM me if you wish further discussion, but since your command of English is adequate its clear you can answer simple questions. I cannot trust you to be anything other than a troll on this forum.

 

Like when I said that:

I think the word "not" it means "no". SO yes I answered you about it.

In your first sentence of you comment, you said that I need to explain my misquoting your comment, which I never said that I misquoting you about the wallet and the money, AND YES I DID EXPLAINED TO YOU HOW THOSE TWO THINGS CAN BE VALUABLE AND STILL DIFFERENT FROM EACH OTHER, but you IGNORED it.

About your second sentence (about about the military companies) I already answered you about it and explained to you how do those companies can be a separate force from the army, if the army itself relay on those companies. BUT ONCE AGAIN YOU IGNORED IT


SO please dot tell me that I ignored what you wrote to me, because I answered you to all of your questions to me, it YOU that didnt and still refusing to answer MY questions.

 

Really? Then please tell us all what system of government this fictional Palestinian nation had and who it's leaders were and what it's history was other than just a bunch of people somehow appearing circa after the Jewish nation of Judea and Israel.

Really now. Can you produce the constitution of the nation of Israel and wherever whatever to show this is not permitted? And, once you do show us all how this is not permitted by the nation of Israel as they are the legal occupants of the land now.

Yes, the squatters.

How classy.

 

Negative. The homeland of the Jews,.. expands by ethnic cleansing Arabs and bedouins and thieving their belongings.
It hits the news every year for the last decades.

 

Thats why you have Arab ministers in the Israeli government?
Thats why the Arab parties in Israel got 11% in the last elections?
Thats why you have Jews in Arab parties?
Thats why the Israeli government just a few weeks ago gave to Taibe 150 Million Shekel?
Thats why the Israeli government just a few weeks ago gave to Umm El Fahem 180 Million Shekel?
Thats why in Gaza the Israeli government decided to move out from there and to let the Arabs there rule themselves?
Thats why Israel signed on the Oslo Agreement?
Thats why the Arabs in East Jerusalem want to stay in Israel and not in the Arab (or as you like to call it Palestinian) state?

 

It had a number of different government systems, namely the Ottoman imperial systems and then the Mandate system. The leaders were various representatives and powerful families, followed by the leaders of various parties seeking independence in the mandate. Ok?

Oh and there was no nation of Judea and Israel. It was a short lived ancient kingdom long forgotten. Most jews didnt even speak its language of Hebrew in the 20th century.

I can produce something even better, the common morality of the human race.

Theres no such thing.

Coming from you that's a compliment. One more thing, in our last communication the line should have read;

I do not think you are personally lazy, silly, stupid or whatever.


Merely a typo. Forgive me.

 

So they had some of this and that and were ruled by some but no names. Wow, do you prove all your factual arguments with such exacting standards?

A Kingdom, sort of like every nation in Europe, the Middle East and on and forth?

Sorry, Israel and Palestinians are not the norm for the human race but rather an exception. You will have to produce something a bit more exacting to support this somewhat factual (but lacking backup) statement of yours;

"Secondly, they are permitted to rule their own land, but not at the expense of others. That means that they cant logical morally or reasonably invite people from europe just as palestinian arabs cant invite arabs from across the middle east."

Really? Then perhaps you can provide us all with the names of the rulers of this fictional nation of Palestine from say ... circe 1 AD onward.

It is! Cuss away if that's all you have as you are merely a poster on an internet forum with an errant position which you have difficulty supporting so resort to the only feasible means to occupy posts - personal insults. And, being willing to be banned for it in order to display to the world you have no argument shows you are a person of principal and that, is classy!

Was it?

"Fourthly, until you cease your silly cliches and start justifying the things you contend Ill be speaking to you exactly as I like, even if Im banned for it."

 

I named the systems of government just as you asked for, is there something else?

Sort of, a long gone one, therefore not really a state before.

Sorry they are not the exception, conflicts between ethnic groups caused by takeovers by various migrating people are common throughout history. Therefore common humanity and morality apples, there is no alternative.

No need, when you have most of the land and houses developed and built by the majority of inhabitants there's no logical need for any rulers names from Palestine to prove they weren't squatters. That's were you keep making your fundamental logical mistake.

I did not actually insult you, I merely described you as you yourself would readily admit that you are. You spend your time here labelling a million innocent people as squatters. Therefore I described you accurately as you yourself and I can both agree about you. So why cant we be friends?

As for argument, Ive already won it. My position logically stands up to scrutiny whereas yours does not, that's why all you can say is squatters and demand proof of a nation of Palestine according to some vague undefined prescription when you know well that its not even logically necessary.

Yes it was. Ive apologised, now its your turn to be the better man and let us both get on better terms - or is it that you prefer a fight to a logical discussion?

 

Here is the answer to all your opponent's nonsensical belief from the farthest spot on the Globe.

Yashiko Sagamori on Middle East Facts

The PALESTINIANS through the EYES of JAPANESE by Yashiko Sagamori

If you're absolutely sure that "Palestine is a country with ancient and rich history, you should without hesitation to answer some of these questions: when and by whom was created in Palestine?

It was located in what borders?

What were the name of the capital and most important city?

What was the basis of its economy?

What currencies are accepted in this country?

What language is spoken by the Palestinians?

What is the structure of its Government?

Who was the leader of the Palestinian people to Yasser Arafat?

Was there ever Palestine (past or present) is officially recognized by the State?

Let me give a task to "backfill": choose any day in the history of the world and tell me how that day was a Palestinian currency exchange rate against the US dollar or the German mark, British pound sterling or Japanese yen.

And, finally, because today there is no such State, tell me what is the cause of their destruction, and when it happened.

And if you say that Palestinians were once proud nation ", in support of his contention, you have to explain when this nation was especially" proud "and the actuall proud.

Ask, perhaps even one sarcastic question. If this people, that you mistakenly call "Palestine", really is a people, but are not Arabs, collected (or discarded) from around the Arab world; If they really have their own ethnic identity, why before the six day war, 1967 (when the Arab world was soundly defeated) they didn't even try to assert his independence?

I hope you can's resist the temptation to tie the modern Palestinians "mentioned in the Torah plištim (Philistines). In this case, a certain phonetic consonance has no etymological roots.

The truth should be obvious to anyone who wants to know and understand. And is it that Arab countries never gave up the idea of destroying Israel. They are making this dream come true today.

Several times they tried to carry out their sinister plans by military means. But in vain, they failed. Then they decided to set up a terrorist organization with a very cynical name — the Palestinian people. And scattered the people in Gaza, Judea and Samaria.

In fact, the Arabs who settled in Gaza, Judea and Samaria, have far fewer rights in statehood and the status of the nation than, say, the Seminole Indian tribe of Connecticut, which has decided to open a tax-free casino. This tribe is at least positive and motivated purpose. Unlike the representatives of the Indian tribe, the so-called Palestinian people has only one motivation — the destruction of Israel. So in fact the "Palestinian people" is nothing but a terrorist organization, which one day will be disarmed and dismantled.

Any, most generous concessions "to the Palestinians, to respond to any allegations of conditions to establish peace in the Middle East. This is the only way. Arab countries should recognize its defeat in the war with Israel and the underdog status is required to pay reparations for 50 years Israel's repeated attempts to destroy the country.

The most appropriate form of reparation is the removal from the territory of Eretz Israel a terrorist organization and the recognition of Israel's historical right to sovereignty over Gaza, Judea and Samaria.

This will be the end "of the Palestinian people".

Just don't try to convince someone that the proposed me how to solve the Middle East conflict as "cruelty" and "barbarism". Because in case you'll be pushing, you'll have to explain when and how this nation "was formed. And this, I assure you — overwhelming, task ....

Site material "by Yashiko Sagamori" translated from English by Yashiko Sagamori, a consultant on technology transfer information, author of many articles on the Middle East lives in New York.

Read more at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=535_1389515090#0kwRqH3ocs9Q1C8r.99
_________________

 

Nope. You proved yourself without proof of Palestinian right to the land already thank you. Others systems are indicative of a people who have no property or rights to same.

Like the whining Palestinians who never, ever, ever ever had a state and yet are now moaning and (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)ing they should have one even though they refused their opportunity and instead, preferred to kill the rightful owners, the Jews who had a Kingdom with hard proof in the form of Roman documentation, memorials and buildings and all.

Norm? So then, it is the norm for Israel to exist and the Palestinians to be homeless. Myself, I am not so harsh on the Palestinians but, if you are reversing your contention the the Palestinians squatters have rights and really don't then I shall allow you to correct yourself without critiquing.

That might be true if there was never a Jewish nation and Kingdom but as we all know there was.

Once again you prove your original contention wrong as now there are more Israeli land and houses so, no more Palestinians and rights according to your logic.

I work 12 - 17 hour days in the field and would hardly call myself lazy or even any of the people here despite how little or much they do. As for friends, pull my finger.

You were proved wrong by your own logic above once again Creation. Seems you keep applying your morality and criteria forgetting that the original recorded inhabitants who exist today were Jews, not Palestinians. Then you go on to say they need buildings to prove it and there they are, synagogues, walls, carvings, palaces and historical references and then, you y tht because they were ruled over by others and just were there that they have a right to it, sort of like the Jews were for thousands of years and I might add, were there first prior to Palestinians. And now, you freely admit that the Palestinians never had a system of government except that of others so, never had rights to a nation or land as the nation and land belonged to others.

Seems Israel, who have a nation and a globally accepted one at that have rights to the land and the Palestinians need to make peace prior to their opportunity being lost forever.

Apology accepted. My points are factual and logical without the need to have my posts edited for insults. As friendly as can be and, wonder how it can get more pleasurable for you to deal with as it seems the only one fighting is the one who believes there is a fight.

 

That is ridiculous, most of the world has been under the control of an empire at some time. It doesn’t mean where you live is not yours just as though King Herod though was appointed by the local Roman consul it didn’t mean the local Jewish didn’t have any right to the land they were living on.

And neither did the Israelis as I said and you’ve conceded. You seem to be fixated on that particular justification for your viewpoint. So why do you think that is relevant?

And they didn’t refuse their opportunity for independence, they refused partition with a mostly immigrant population, just as you would do, the ancient Canaanites, Hesmodeans, Judeans and others have always done and everyone else in history has always done.

Yes the Jews had a kingdom for a time, but that’s not a state, and they left and did’nt come back for thousands of years when it had been built there by people who’d peaceably lived there for generations.

Conquest is indeed the norm of history as we both agree, but so is logic, morality, opposition, protest and resistance as we will also now both agree. It makes no sense therefore for you to oppose Palestinians when they are only doing what Jewish and Israelites and everyone has always done.

The existence or otherwise of an ancient Jewish kingdom or even an Arab kingdom made no real difference to anyone hundreds years ago and doesn’t make any difference now in this discussion.

Moreover while there was indeed at one point a Judean kingdom, there were many other different kingdoms, districts, empires and such.

By your logic since the Israelis are now there it becomes morally and logically their land, therefore all one need do establish rights is to conquer them by violence. This is concept is morally wrong and therefore useless. The only useful concept is to ascertain what happened to the individual people who lived and exactly where they lived.

Ok lets put it a more nuanced way, your position in this discussion is both intellectually lazy and morally repugnant.

No I’ve never forgotten who the original inhabitants were, and they were not Jews. The land existed with human habitation far longer than since the existence of the Jewish people.

Indeed there are synagogues there, and Mosques, and Churches. There are also roads, walls, carvings, palaces and historical references and villages, in 1948 all this had been mostly built by Palestinians, not Jewish immigrants from Europe.

And yes, just by being there means they have a right to it, as do those Jews who were also just being there. That doesn’t mean the rest of the arab world has a right to it, nor does it mean the rest of the Jewish world has a right to it.

The land never belonged to others, even when others ruled the area with their various systems of government. Just as the land did not belong to Romans, or British, or Ottomans it belonged to those who lived there Jewish and Palestinian of all faiths.

And the Palestinians have been making peace for a long long time, it is the Israelis who have refused peace over and over again by continuing to invade and settle everywhere their military power could take them.



Apology accepted. My points are factual and logical without the need to have my posts edited for insults. As friendly as can be and, wonder how it can get more pleasurable for you to deal with as it seems the only one fighting is the one who believes there is a fight.[/QUOTE]

I can produce facts for you anytime you like and have already done so. Moreover your arguments are half baked balderdash not even you have the reasoning to justify.

 

Actually the Jews had various kingdoms for almost a thousand years and not always under the boot of the Romans.

The part about the Palestinians having the destruction of Israel as their official policy and hating them so much that they use their own children and people as weapons and human shields or something else? Please be specific when stating something like “that particular justification.”

Please provide the examples to support your contention that “the ancient Canaanites, Hesmodeans, Judeans and others have always done and everyone else in history has always done” as I don’t seem to recall any historical offer of partition in these nations or peoples.

Not a state? I should like to see you tell that to the Belgians, Canadians, Saudi Arabians, Kuwaitis, Dutch, British and a host of other nations and not have you be laughed at in various languages.

What, strap bombs to their children? Please show how everybody has done this.

Well, the thousand year long reign of the Jewish Kingdom may not mean much to you but then again, you view Britain and a few other nations with Monarchs as a stateless land so I really can’t take you seriously at this point.

Please show a couple of them from that time and area and then show how they are here today with monuments and such to prove your point. Ensure you include the Palestinian Kingdom too.

No that is your logic as the Palestinians squatted on that land after the Jews were driven out and then, when the Jews returned they attempted to kill them beginning with the riots or ’29 and declaring war on them in ’48 and then using their own people as weapons and children as suicide bombs.

So you were being untruthful when you said this then;

No surprise.

And I suppose you are now going to tell us it was a Palestinian Kingdom and then provide some history to prove it or have some cave dweller lay claim to the land and show a rock his people once worshiped ten thousand years ago and call it proof that the Palestinians and the Kingdoms of Israel and Judea were squatters? Please, provide your proof and argument.

Yes, the squatters who arrived after the Jews were driven out. They built a few houses and presto! They have a nation while the Jews who had an empire for a thousand years have nothing. And now you come here and take the side of those who never had a nation of their own, nor kingdom, nor government, nor leader, nor currency, nor capital and say they have the right to take away the rights of the Jewish people who call that land their ancestral home and never left.

Seems the Palestinians disagree with your little contention as they never stated anything that smacked of compromise or restitution or understanding in their declaration of murder in 1948 and in fact, just stated they were going to destroy Israel, however big or small it was.

Too bad the Palestinians don’t agree with you as they official and verbally believe it all belongs to them and have stated so over and over again.

Nice try though!

Yes, declaring war is a peaceful move when done by murderous Palestinians and, vowing to destroy a nation since it was born is likewise quite peaceful and, murdering Jews is a gentle thing to do as has been done since the riots of ’29.

Saudi Arabia is not a nation? Denmark is not a nation? Britain is not a nation? This is the argument you have attempted to make here and I should like to see the facts to support this as you contended that “Yes the Jews had a kingdom for a time, but that’s not a state”

 

So did most of the rest of the world, the Jews had many different warring kingdoms and also came under the control of others, at no time for the Jews living there when under the control of a local Jewish king, chieftain or a Roman or Assyrian king did it mean the land they were born on wasn’t theirs.

Ive never mentioned terrorism, which is apparent on both sides history. The part your fixated on is about having a prior modern nation state, I would like to know the reasoning behind your arguments.....Are you going to tell me?

There are no examples in history of a native population agreeing to divide their land with an immigrant population. This fact supports my contention.

Apples and oranges, a kingdom, of the ancient kind, can be and was divided up by its ruling dynasty whereas a state, of the modern kind cannot be divided up, has a constitution that defines a core national group, introduces equality before the law for all members of the nation, and provides for “popular rule” by some form of elected body; Some states still are not modern nation-states such as Saudi Arabia, Bhutan, Brunei.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_terrorism#The_United_States

What thousand year reign? The Jewish kingdom you mention split apart and changed rulers many times, so that's not true.

There is no connection between the ancient kingdoms and the modern nation state, two different things. Britain is a constitutional monarchy with universal sufferage, defined borders and various state institutions. The ancient Jewish kingdoms had none of this so its existence makes no difference in this discussion.

Photographs of Palestine as part of the Ottoman empire are easily available on the net. The remains of Caananite civilisation, influenced by all its neighbours has already been discovered in Palestine, photos are available too. Would you like to see them?

No they didn’t squat. That’s impossible, look up the definition of squatting.

The Jews who were driven out were long dead. Those who came to Palestine had no knowledge of and had made no contribution to the land so they were resisted as anyone else would resist.

The terrorism was started by the Zionists not the Palestinians.

No I was being truthful, ive just said your position is intellectually lazy and morally repugnant. Surely we can both agree that is the case and that your position is as described yes or no?

Records show the land inhabited by people far far longer than the Jewish kingdoms. Some 1.5 million years longer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine#Ancient_period

Not only houses, but roads, viaducts, farm land cash crops, public squares, town buildings ports etc etc. What had the Jews whose ancient kingdoms were then and are now dust built in Palestine when they first arrived from europe? Very little, because they’d been building in Europe, where they were from.
And no one was trying to take away the rights of those who had never left. Jews living in Palestine had the same rights to Palestine as the Muslims and Christians, Samaritans and others, not more.

I didn’t mention compromise I mentioned rights, as in natural rights. As opposition to the creation of Israel was the opinion of the majority of people who had lived in Palestine and who owned and had built on most of the land then trying to stop it was the morally correct thing to do and trying to birth Israel was the wrong thing to do.

As the majority of people in Palestine at the time they were ethnically cleansed they have a moral right to say it belongs to them, especially as they built it.

Yes, just as murderous Zionists arriving to a land with the intention to take it from those who live there is a peaceful move.

Saudi Arabia is an absolute monarchy, its law is based on the quran, it has no universal sufferage and very little in the way of social or state institutions. Denmark and the Uk are nation states with kings as head of state, they both have universal sufferage, defined territorial integriry borders, varied social and state insitutions, the people are represented in Parliament and Parliament's writ rules in the land - thats what makes them a modern nation state . Your ancient jewish kingdom was more like Saudi Arabia, so no there was a Jewish Kingdom in ancient times but there was no ancient Jewish state and therefore they did not have a state before. Agreed yes?

 

Huh?

Kingdom of Israel lasted three hundred years under their own power Creation.

You didn't but your sure got it wrong when you said;

They didn't refuse partition, they attempted to kill every last Jew by any means they could and still, to this day, have that policy at the forefront of their agenda so please, skip this peace loving crap Creation and stick to telling us all how half the earth is not actually states or nations.

Please supply your proof that the Palestinians were a native population and Jews were not.

You mean that tact of land in the ME which is not anything but a bunch of people in the sand? Incredible. As for your silly contention that a state has to have "a constitution that defines a core national group, introduces equality before the law for all members of the nation, and provides for “popular rule” by some form of elected body" every communist and dictatorship ruled nation on earth has also been classed by yourself as simply being a bunch of people with no nation so keep going, you are certainly opening my eyes as to how out of tune you are.

Please show how many women and children John Brown deliberately targeted and killed in his attack on the armory.

Wow, so the bulk of the nations on earth do not exist nor never existed? Incredible. Tell me more about this land in the ME that you don't recognize as a country and explain why Britain and the rest of the world (except for you) recognize her as Saudi Arabia and then, please tell us how none of the nations in the list supplied are actually nations as they changed rulers and names.

And before that there was no country or nation or state and they crushed the Scotts into submission? Incredible Creation.

Well then, if we are simply going to say that we start in the here and now it looks like the Palestinians have no rights to the land as Israel is a recognized nation and sitting on the property.

So now it is the Ottoman Empire which you believe has the right to the land. Please show the official claims by Turkey to this land and explain why Turkey recognizes Israel as a nation when they believe they own it.

You mean that now the Palestinians are not Ottomans but rather Caananites? Who were their rulers, kings and were they a democratic nation with "a constitution that defines a core national group, introduces equality before the law for all members of the nation, and provides for “popular rule” by some form of elected body"

As for photos, I certainly would once you have them authenticated that they are a kingdom that precedes the Israelites and Judea with all the trappings you state are necessary to prove they were the owners of the land occupied now by the legal state of Israel.

If nothing else, please at least come clean with this contention.

So now you have changed your contention that all those Jews who remained in Israel and the Levant are not of Jewish origin and, that all those who returned were never genticly from there as well? Have you proof of this usual wild a$$ed contention?

Please cite pre 1929 instances where Jews strapped bombs to their children and sent them into public areas of Palestinians.

My ‘position?’ Strange, you said

Seems to me you are unable to make the point that you didn’t insult me, first saying it was a typo, then saying it was my position when in reality as shown above, it is you attacking me personally. Given your history as detailed with the following quotes, I’m unable to take you seriously in this particular matter.

And the only people to claim other than the Jews are the people who came well after them and never had a nation or kingdom or "a constitution that defines a core national group, introduces equality before the law for all members of the nation, and provides for “popular rule” by some form of elected body"

Interesting.

I see, so John Brown is now representative of the Palestinian people. How many children did he kill in his attack on the armories? What is his record in directly targeting civilians?

The Jews who remained in the Levant were building things in Europe? Please tell me more.

Well they had to have left in order to build all these things in Europe that you just went on about above and then they chose to invite other Jews and help form a nation, something the Palestinian squatters never were able to do. That is the right of people who rightfully have a nation Creation.

Good as the Palestinians have from day one wished to remove the right of Jews to exist as anything, even people alive on planet earth.

Yes, so now we come to the crunch, it was, to you, morally correct to kill Jews. No Israeli government has the destruction of the Palestinian people as their policy. I am sorry to say that while it was never a tempting offer, I do not wish to be friends with one who has such a belief.

 

Yes under their own power over running other people and areas until someone else decided to over run them, it was an ancient kingdom, run along dynastic lines no clear borders, no universal sufferage, nothing like a nation state and no one alive a hundred years ago or today was ever there. In fact its remains had to be dug up. Along with the remains of all the earlier settlements, kingdoms, villages and towns by various people there. So that’s a pathetic justification.

So it was you that mentioned terrorism, not me, you admit that. And now you change the subject, classy.

They did refuse partition, so stop talking out your rear end, you know better. They continually asked for independence, they fought for it and instead seen an immigrant population allowed in whose stated intention was to take the land. They were already under threat by this population and the British when they attacked Jewish people after Jewish people demanded that the land be given to them.

Ok then. Palestinians built every road and town in Palestine, were the vast majority in every district. Some relatively small number of Jews were indeed native to the land, most jews however were in Europe – that’s where they were native, that’s were theyd lived their lives and built the countries they lived in. Would you like proof of this?

Um no even those dictatorships and communist states you mention have these attributes of the state at least in documentation which the ancient jewish kingdom does not. Ok then? Are we done on that point? The jews did not have a state before, that’s settled.

I did not mention women and children you did and I gave you the link find out for yourself, and the link details the history of all terrorism not just the united states.

Oh yes they recognise the House of Saud as rulers of that land. But we’re talking about nation states aren’t we? Saudi Arabia doesnt conform to attributes of names.

Your list is about name changes, the Jewish kingdom of long ago not only changed rulers and names but split apart into different little parts.

It was not a state prior to that, in fact it was four kingdoms. The elements of a state developed over time. I’ve been pretty clear. And what crushing? We won our independence at the battle of Stirling Bridge.

So why have you spent all this time detailing the importance of the existence of a prior kingdom only to give up when I tell you there is no connection? No we start from the beginning of this conflict, namely the Zionist campaign to take over Palestine.

No, it’s the Palestinians who have the right. They kicked out the Ottomans as allies of the British and then repeatedly asked for independence. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp?

Yes exactly, as do many different people, what exactly is your problem with that? Blow your mind does it?

The rulers were local families like the large land holders around Nablus who occasionally rebelled against imperial rulers and occasionally went along with them – just as the Jews did.
Records of their remains for which there are photographs show, that they were a pre-existing civilisation. The trappings I mention are the attributes of a state, it does not prove they were the owners of the land – you have postulated that one needs to have had a state or be part of a state to morally be able to claim to own the land you were born on and that the Jews had a state – I have shown you why they did not.

No Ive never said those who remained in Palestine and the Levant are not of Jewish origin. That’s your wild contention, so please evidence your claim.
Those who returned were genetically from Africa as we all are thought to be, their real lives were lived in Europe and the wider middle east not Palestine, that’s the crucial important factor.

Exactly, that’s why the Palestinians cannot be called squatters. Its completely impossible to call them squatters by that definition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_terrorism
Following the 1929 Hebron massacre of 67 Jewish settlers in the British Mandate of Palestine, the Zionist settlers militia Haganah transformed itself into a paramilitary force. In 1931, however, a more militant Irgun broke away from Haganah, objecting to Haganah's policy of restraint toward Arabs fighting Jewish settlers.[80] Founded by Avraham Tehomi,[81][82] Irgun sought to aggressively defend Jews from Arab attacks. Its tactic of attacking Arab communities, including the bombing a crowded Arab market, is considered among the first examples of terrorism directed against civilians


As for the 1929 massacre,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
The Hebron massacre refers to the killing of sixty-seven Jews (including 23 college students) on 24 August 1929 in Hebron, then part ofMandatory Palestine, by Arabs incited to violence by false rumors that Jews were massacring Arabs in Jerusalem and seizing control of Muslim holy places.[1] The event also left scores seriously wounded or maimed. Jewish homes were pillaged and synagogues were ransacked. Many of the 435 Jews who survived were hidden by local Arab families

Yes I’ve nuanced my argument since then and now would describe your position as intellectually lazy and morally repugnant, do you agree that your position is so?

Claims have no moral and logical validity if you don’t actually live and haven’t built the country. Is that interesting too? LOL.

The link to Palestine’s ancient period doesn’t mention John Brown, your getting yourself confused now.

No the Jews in and from Europe built in Europe, those in the Levant built in the Levant. The Palestinians built in Palestine. Is that the more you want? Is there some more youd like? Ill happily provide.

LOL, there is no choosing to invite, that’s just morally wrong and therefore that is not the right of Palestinian Jews especially as they did not have a nation. They shared Palestine with other people. Ignoring them is morally wrong.

Rubbish, if they wanted all Jews dead they had plenty of opportunity long before and after the 1921 Balfour Declaration.

LOL, thats pathetic. Not to kill Jews no Ive never said that. Now youre just making things up because youve been confounded.

Palestinians do not have the destruction of the Jewish people as their policy.

Israel has ethnically cleansed hundreds of thousands of people from their homes, taken them over and bulldozed their villages – even today they thieve land for their own people and deny that Palestinians even exist – so it is in fact Israel who seeks the destruction of a people. You support all those policies which makes your position both evil, intellectually lazy and morally repugnant.

 

Like North Korea, Britain in the mid fourteen hundreds, Scotland during same, in fact, the entire world with the exception of a couple of democratic nations which only allowed approved citizens this right so please, stick to insults as you made more of an impact on these forums with those than this silly argument.

Certainly more like one than what the Palestinians ever had until they recently had elections. I suppose that you will be saying that they don't have the right to be a nation as they didn't have universal suffrage until now huh?

Uh huh except historians all recognize the Kingdoms and nation of Israel whereas they certainly don't recognize any nation of Palestinians who mobbed together to squat on land that is Jewish land from thousands of years ago with no right to it whatsoever other than the whining and insulting from mistaken and biased internet posters and anti-Semites the world over.

Nope. The subject is still the same – Palestinians are squatters and Jews are the rightful owners of the land that they occupy on now. The reason that you seem quite confused other than your extreme bias which for some reason will not allow you to acknowledge that the Jews have rights is that you stated that Palestinians simply “refused partition with a mostly immigrant population” but in reality, they did a lot more than that Creation – they intended to murder every Jew, those who were immigrants and those whom had rights to the land and have ever since by committing terrorism.

Hamas is a terrorist organization who’s official policy is the destruction of Israel and they use terrorism, lots and lots and lots of it. In fact, rare is the occasion when they actually fight a soldier or military unit preferring instead to murder woman and children. They have done this since they “refused partition” which by the way, was done by way of Declaring War on Israel to the United Nations.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/arab_invasion.html
“Arab League Declaration on the Invasion of Palestine May 15, 1948”

Nope. No refusal of partition, just a declaration to attack the Jews and their state. Here, try it this way, the Jews acknowledged the partition and so, they have a prosperous nation and country while the Palestinians are a fourth world peoples with a garbage dump for a state.

Asked? You mean blew up buses, blew up pizza parlors, blew up their own children and blew their opportunity to have quiet meaningful discourse by launching rockets into civilian territory. Like I said, they are terrorists.

Ah yes, the battle of the suicide bombings where young adults had explosives taped to them and entered areas where children their own age frequented and then blew them up along with themselves. Yes, they fight quite bravely these terrorists. Wondering, do they train for attacks on civilians by taking candy from babies?

So much fibbing going on here that I’ll just say that never once did they ever sit down and negotiate in good faith but rather killed, attacked civilians and when the other Jew hating Arab nations got in on it declared war alongside them against the Jews, not just the Euro Jews but all the Jews.

Yes I’m sure if you dig up some of the four lane concrete freeway and expressways in Israel you may find some goat turds at the very bottom along with the pulverized limestone crap they used. On the other hand, if you go to Jerusalem you will find the giant rocks that make up the wall of Solomon’s temple or the fortress of Masada.

Just like the Palestinians you love so much are sitting in Gaza planning their next child murder. That’s where they have lived their lives. Would you like proof of this? They built terror, squalor and hardship for their people and if you believe they will make model citizens if allowed to infect the Palestinians who live in Israel then you have to be using the Hamas Covenant as reading material.

You can start your research here;

"Modern Principles of Democracy Emanate from Ancient Jews, Chicago Professor Says"

Read more: http://www.jta.org/1943/04/13/archi...ent-jews-chicago-professor-says#ixzz2vVwA2veo

Hardly. Judea and Israel were both kingdoms and, had democracy and, a ruler and, capitals and, currency and, a common language and, a history and, their descendants scattered and some stayed and welcomed the ones who scattered back to their ancestral home.

I did though as terrorism likes to kill woman and children and Brown did neither. As for the link, it says “http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History..._United_States”

United States. And, it took me to John Brown. If you wish me to look at more then just quote it please rather than make me guess what it is you wish me to look at as the link took me to what I naturally thought was what you wished me to look at.

Not much suffrage going on there so by your criteria they don’t exist. Anyhow, the kingdoms of Isl and Judea are a fact as people lived there as an organized society with borders just as any nation of the times did.

Point is they changed rulers, systems of governments and names yet remain a nation.

Strange as you were at war with the British for another two hundred years and hardly gained anything but a lot of dead kilted warriors.

Not giving up Creation, read my post, I said “if we are simply going to” which shows that no matter what garbage you come out with you are checkmated on all counts.

And so, if you wish to start in the here and now, ten, twenty, fifty years ago or whenever it’s all over as Israel is a state, nation, country, member of the United Nations and Palestine is a group of people or, a mob with a sliver of land and observer status at the UN. Like the ancient Israelites they have been usurped by another peoples, a peoples known as Jews who have returned to reclaim their land.

So, let us begin!

Your bias has once again led you down your fantasy garden path, the Jews were just as active and entitled as the Arabs as they too fought the Ottomans.

Not at all as it is simply another canard as no Canaanites have come forth to claim the Levant as they don’t exist as a peoples anymore, only the Jews do with the Palestinians squatting much later as a mob or people who moved in afterwards. Surely you are not going to propose that when a person leaves his cottage for the winter and returns in the spring that the squirrels and rodents are now the legitimate owners?.

Sort of like Lizzie in Britain, your ruler. Do you curtsy or salute when God Save the Queen is played?

You’ve shown many things – that you prefer to insult rather than discuss, that you have selective application for definitions, that you believe resistance is terrorism, that compassion by a few exonerates the hideous deeds by the many, that a peoples is a state only when it is not Jews and, among other things that you change your contention when you are defeated and that for some reason you wish to be personal friends with me which I find rather creepy but whimsical as other than being a supporter of terrorists you are probably a nice person that has no idea your views proved support those who hideously kill their own people and others while keeping their own people in squalor.

Not what I asked Creation. I asked you to prove that “that all those (the Jews who were asked to return or wished to return or did return) who returned were never genetically from there”

Please do so in order to make your point. Be sure to include the DNA print of all immigrants to Israel and Palestine circa 1940/50.

Same response as above. Please prove this by statistics from an accredited source utilizing science and data from individuals rather than theoretical extrapolation.

Strange. In 1948 the UN recognized Israel not Palestine and the Palestinians rather than acknowledging they agreed that the Jews owned land stated they owned it all and forfeited this claim by doing so and therefore, seems they never had a legal title to the land but, as usual, I don’t expect you to acknowledge .

Golly, and after this ceased seems the Arabs developed a gift for this and to this day call it ‘fighting.’

So Palestinians terrorize Jews and a scant few know terrorism is wrong and save some of them so that makes all Palestinians good even though their government uses terrorism as a weapon of legitimate warfare and call it fighting huh?

I think you change your contention because you know you have now been educated by mods on how your insulting crap will not be permitted so are looking for a face saving way out from saying you will post whatever you want even if it gets you banned.

Sort of like the Palestinians who haven’t been in Israel for over sixty years. Keep going, in a decade or two there won’t be one left alive so we can all say without any argument whatsoever that none of them ever lived there so the Israelis are all natural born indigenous peoples.

Hardly, I edited and then suffered a lapse in internet. What I wished to post was the first portion which states;

“Palestine has been controlled by numerous different peoples, including the Ancient Egyptians, Canaanites, Philistines, Tjekker, Ancient Israelites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ancient Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, the Muslims, the Crusaders, Ayyubids, Mameluks, Ottomans, the British,”

No mention of Palestinians. Your source, your proof. For our purposes it only mentions Israelites. Thanks for proving yourself wrong.

Proof of a Palestinian state that pre dates Jews.

It was their home as they were there first Creation.

And they tried but to no avail. Seems that when a Jew doesn’t adhere to being a Dhimmi they become a target for terrorism and murder.

http://www.cfr.org/israel/hamas/p8968#p5
“Hamas combines Palestinian nationalism with Islamic fundamentalism. Its founding charter commits the group to the destruction of Israel, the replacement of the PA with an Islamist state on the West Bank and Gaza, and to raising "the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine."
http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.../carryover/documents/charter.html?chocaid=397
“Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).”

As for the PA, they actually declared violence against Israel as legal and defense of Israel as illegal. I guess killing Jews behind tree and bushes is ok.

“Our war with the descendants of the apes and pigs (ie: the Jews) is a war of religion and faith,” the moderator said.

The Mufti added to the moderator’s statement, saying that Islam’s goal is to kill the Jews.”

Guess I'm not making things up.

 

According to the psychopath 'Prophet' Mo Jews and Christians made up over two thirds of towns like Medina and Mecca, and probably most of the western ME in the years he was busy organizing his murder squads to loot and murder and enslave everybody in the name of himself. An irony is Mo and his early erstwhile bandit followers even had to hide out in Christian Abyssinia for a time in order to keep from being killed by his own Arab peoples. If Jews and Christians had been a little less tolerant of sociopathic nut jobs back then, the world would have been saved from 100's of millions of murders and robbery over the next 1,400 years.

This is also a lesson in why it's common sense to control immigration and weed out the nut jobs and Muslims.

Oh yes, I forgot to add what is now Yemen and a couple of other early kingdoms were Jewish as well, so it's not just where is Israel is that Jews settled and built countries.

 

Thats interesting, so does that mean thyre within theyre rights to move in and set up another Israel in these places too?

 

Good point!

They would only have a right to do that in lands where their Kingdoms and nations were or, lands of those who attack them from and frequently do.