I am an abortion consequentialist, and if you're smart, you are too

You do realize that the Supreme Court declaring the U.S. a Christian nation DIRECTLY contradicts the 1st amendment, correct? Unless, it was stated as a matter of opinion, and not fact(hint: It was).

 

If you are getting at the "separation of church and state" quote…that is NOT IN THE CONSTITUTION….it was in a letter to the Danbury Baptists. In no government document does this appear. Opinion….? And the abortion ruling what was that? Opinion based on what? The bias of those on it? Which means if you have a majority of left wing radical humanists….your laws will reflect that worldview. Our laws are based on the bias of those making them.

Everything about the United STates from the get go was Christian. And the actions of even Jefferson would blow politicians away today. Do you think he followed what you say was the law in place? No

They wanted to make sure there was no state church…..but did not to forbid people from worship. Jefferson if there was separation of church and state….broke it numerous times while President. Congress also broke it and history attests that they did.
They appointed chaplains that were Christian, they sponsored the publication of the Bible and had it imported from out of the country. And to promote Christianity they granted public lands. Then they declared national days of THANKSGIVING, FASTING AND PRAYER. THESE WERE PROCLAIMED BY THE GOVERNMENT WHICH YOU SAID WAS FOLLOWING THAT PHRASE SEPARATION OF C & S. NOT SO. They even opened their sessions with prayer. Who were they praying too? LMAO

http://resourcelibrary.patriotactionnetwork.com/religion-congress-confed/


“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

This does not say anything about keeping religion out of government that they be separated. It gives us that right.


In 1774, while serving in the Virginia Assembly, Jefferson personally introduced a resolution calling for a Day of Fasting and Prayer.

In 1779, as Governor of Virginia, Jefferson decreed a day of “Public and solemn thanksgiving and prayer to Almighty God.”

As President, Jefferson signed bills that appropriated financial support for chaplains in Congress and the armed services.

On March 4, 1805, President Jefferson offered “A National Prayer for Peace,” which petitioned:

“Almighty God, Who has given us this good land for our heritage; We humbly beseech Thee that we may always prove ourselves a people mindful of Thy favor and glad to do Thy will. Bless our land with honorable ministry, sound learning, and pure manners.

Save us from violence, discord, and confusion, from pride and arrogance, and from every evil way. Defend our liberties, and fashion into one united people the multitude brought hither out of many kindreds and tongues.

Endow with Thy spirit of wisdom those to whom in Thy Name we entrust the authority of government, that there may be justice and peace at home, and that through obedience to Thy law, we may show forth Thy praise among the nations of the earth.

In time of prosperity fill our hearts with thankfulness, and in the day of trouble, suffer not our trust in Thee to fail; all of which we ask through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen.”

TELL ME WHERE WAS THIS WALL? Today we can't pray like that….but Jefferson, a Founder and the author of the C….did. Wow.


http://www.contenderministries.org/articles/separationmyth.php

Wall? Humpty Dumpty had a wall……our Constitution did not…at least where religion was involved and Jefferson of all people demonstrated that.

 

And no opposition to these facts? LOL

Got quiet all of a sudden. The fact is there is no separation of Church and State there NEVER WAS. The founders did not want a state controlling religion…and wanted to protect people from one…but not of religion itself. They prayed, they acted on their religion and did it in the political arena. History attests to this fact.

 

None of that matters. The 1st amendment precludes this nation from being Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Protestant, Jewish, or any other religion.

What you actually mean to be saying is, The United States was FOUNDED BY a variety of people, some of whom held Christian beliefs and opinions about it's role in our nation. Besides, that was 225 years ago before we even knew that washing our hands would help to keep us from getting sick, and that locusts weren't divine acts of God.

Also, the court case where the Surpreme Court said this was a Christian nation as you claim, was in the late 1800s, and the case itself had nothing to do with a challenge to religion, but dealt with immigration and employment. The Justice mentioning that this country is a Christian nation, does so in passing because the people involved in this case where priests and other churchish people.

 

None of that matters? LMAO

Oh yea? Well it shows that there is no separation of church and state…the actions of the Founders were very much religious in nature with God in mind, particularly Christian. There is no denying this….unless you rewrite the history of the past and revise it. And that is being done as we speak.
SCOTUS….said in its findings that we are, were a Christian nation period. You can't in anyway spin it.

Alexis de Tocqueville wrote a book on this….called Democracy in America. He was a historian that came to America and then wrote about his observations.

"Moreover, almost all the sects of the United States are comprised within the great unity of Christianity, and Christian morality is everywhere the same. In the United States the sovereign authority is religious, and consequently hypocrisy must be common; but there is no country in the whole world in which the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America, and there can be no greater proof of its utility, and of its conformity to human nature, than that its influence is most powerfully felt over the most enlightened and free nation of the earth.
The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other; and with them this conviction does not spring from that barren traditionary faith which seems to vegetate in the soul rather than to live.
There are certain populations in Europe whose unbelief is only equaled by their ignorance and their debasement, while in America one of the freest and most enlightened nations in the world fulfills all the outward duties of religion with fervor.
Upon my arrival in the United States, the religious aspect of the country was the first thing that struck my attention; and the longer I stayed there, the more did I perceive the great political consequences resulting from this state of things, to which I was unaccustomed. In France I had almost always seen the spirit of religion and the spirit of freedom pursuing courses diametrically opposed to each other; but in America I found that they were intimately united, and that they reigned in common over the same country."

Not Judaism…not Buddah or Muhammed at the forefront….…….Christ was the Center the focus of Americans at this time. Of course today we are the opposite and the vast majority people do not reflect Christ even though they might call themselves Christian.

 

None of that matters because the 1st amendment prohibits this country being a country of ANY religion. For someone who always seems to bring up the Constitution when you think some great wrong has occurred, or to say that abortion is wrong, you conveniently ignore it when it contradicts your silly statements.

I don't deny that some of the founders may have had Christian beliefs. That's fine, but the founders having religious beliefs does not equal this country being a Christian nation. That's completely flawed logic.

 

You don't read…..at least your not getting it. I did not say that today we are a Christian nation. I said that in the Founders day, even before that….when Jefferson wrote the Constitution WE WERE VERY MUCH CHRISTIAN. The things he did, that the other Founders said and did demonstrated that Christianity was practiced. If you look at the state constitutions of the day….most if not all mentioned Christ. In fact in order to hold a public office YOU HAD TO BE CHRISTIAN.

The majority of the people, (at that time men)….went to colleges such as Harvard, William and Mary, King's college, Yale... to become pastors. Read the foundations and principles of Harvard when it opened. Why would a nation put in place laws to restrict someone from holding public office in this case Christianity….if they were not in fact Christian?

Why would the public schools have its students recite the Lords Prayer….why would they teach the things they did for generations if what you said was true? Heck Noah Webster even stated that education without the bible is useless. So the Bible was included in the curriculum in the schools at that time. Have you ever looked one of the Primers they used back then? Religious themes throughout the book…the Lords Prayer, Apostles Creed, the Ten Commandments, the Westminster Assembly Shorter Catechism. And get this…to learn the alphabet they incorporated biblical principles with each letter. It taught the kids about Christianity while learning the alphabet.

All this…..and you say we were not set up to follow Christ? The truth was that all this was set up to advance the cause of the Christian faith so that its citizens would remain Christian men and women….citizens, instruments of the church. This is historical fact. This did not however prohibit someone from following another faith.

Now I will not argue that a shift in power took place and today we are anything but a country that looks to Christ for guidance. Today our schools and universities are built for secular purposes. We have certainly changed from what we once were…and from what Harvard's declaration that the main end of mans life is to know God and Jesus Christ. We kicked God out and replaced Him with Darwin, Dewey and evolution. And today our schools are one of the most sought after tools in trying to control the masses. It is the way to brainwash future generations to the ideals of those in power. Whoever controls the schools sets the tone and controls the future. Today its the Democratic party of socialism. They are in bed with the NEA and other secular institutions working feverishly to ban religious activity everywhere. If you want to know why we are what we are….look to who is in control of our schools. And they are a disgrace and mess on a global scale….as is our culture.

The fact is and history shows that protestant Christianity has been our established religion in almost every sense of the word. It supplied our country with its system of values. I suggested you….read our charters, state constitutions, read what presidents and governors…said and did….it echoes that for four centuries we were very much Christian in content. Today those ideals clash with todays secular multiculturistic, society. Moral relativism has taken over…even though the majority claim to be Christian. They don't however live the Christian worldview like in generations past.

You say……flawed logic. No its historical fact, that you just won't admit. Its one thing to claim like you do that we were nothing Christian…that there was no evidence of our Christian roots…and another when you try to rewrite and revise history of past. Our past shows that the majority of Americans shared a common religion and ethic system….and the documents written starting even back as far as the Mayflower Compact or Winthrops sermon on the Arabella…show exactly the truth of what we once were.

I took this online free course about all this…and particularly about the Constitution. It is excellent. Hillsdale is an amazing college and this course is the best.

http://constitution.hillsdale.edu/

History is history and you can't change the past….only the future.

 

Nobody is trying to change anything, you're just trying to interpret the predominant culture as the government itself being Christian, which wasn't the case then and isn't now. Many of the principles contained within Christianity are not isolated to Christianity, and in fact, are pretty universal meaning you can no more claim they are Christian than you can they are Buddhist. They also ignore the roots of those beliefs being in cultures and religions that existed previous to Christianity and from which the people who contributed to the creation of Christianity almost certainly drew from. Many of the founders may have been religious and attended religious schools, but that's very much because those were the best schools around at the time. Secularism was not very widespread, and the religious schools were the learning centers of that day and age.

Anyhow, I'm not sure how we go on this topic in this thread. We should probably bring this back to abortion. If you want to keep discussing this, lets make a topic in the relevant forum.

 

Junkieturtle said, "Nobody is trying to change anything, you're just trying to interpret the predominant culture as the government itself being Christian, which wasn't the case then and isn't now. Many of the principles contained within Christianity are not isolated to Christianity, and in fact, are pretty universal meaning you can no more claim they are Christian than you can they are Buddhist. They also ignore the roots of those beliefs being in cultures and religions that existed previous to Christianity and from which the people who contributed to the creation of Christianity almost certainly drew from. Many of the founders may have been religious and attended religious schools, but that's very much because those were the best schools around at the time. Secularism was not very widespread, and the religious schools were the learning centers of that day and age."

You do not know history that is quite obvious. This is useless……because you simply are in denial. Christ was at the center of the political arenas….it was in the public schools and THEY CALLED CHRIST BY NAME. IT WAS NOT BUDDAH, MUHAMMED OR SOME OTHER PAGAN SYMBOL.

You have not addressed anything I wrote as far as factual information…..and we all know why. You can't change something that was….the truth is truth even if you deny it.

Discuss this with you? How can one deny the truth….and discuss anything? Its like hitting your head on the wall over and over.

Our laws reflected not some pagan God…..but the God of Abraham. Jefferson imported bibles and proclaimed days of Christian fasting….kids said the Lords prayer in schools….you have to be a Christian to hold offices….I mean what more do you want as far as evidence.

 

I want the document that our nation was created under to say that we are a Christian nation. Since it does not, and since the 1st amendment precludes it from even doing so, there is nothing for me to deny. The facts are not on your side here, and in fact, your position is supported only through your misinterpretation of history, which means you don't have much of a position at all to begin with, at least not one that is factually credible.

 

I want it to say that abortion to be legal. Does it say that women should be able to kill?

Shouldn't it say it if….the rights are there?

 

The Supreme Court ruling that it is legal under the constitution is pretty much the same thing.

 

It is unconstitutional…because it does not protect the unborn.

 

Well, I guess we're at an impasse, though I take a little comfort in knowing the Supreme Court of the United States agrees with me.

 

WEll the Supreme Court is not perfect and neither are you. You just happened to get this one wrong…and because of it the blood is on your hands. How does that feel?

 

Then by that logic, you too are imperfect, and therefore, why do you get to dictate to me what is right and wrong when you are just as imperfect as you accuse me and the SCOTUS of being?

I'm not sure I understand your question though. Are you saying I should feel guilty about the abortions that have been performed? Why would I?

 

I never said that blood never was on my hands did I? I killed my unborn child…of course it was.
I believe in God so for me morality is set in stone. For you it is not…you would have to make your morals up as you go….so sky is the limit. I know what is right and wrong…you are a moral relativist…so for you…there is no set morality…so right and wrong changes.

I am called a bigot…simply because I am against same sex marriage. I would vote to deny gays the right to marry. So how is that different than the abortion issue? You would vote to allow women the right to kill a living human being. We both are standing up for what we think is morally right. My stance does not kill anyone….yours does. Of course you do not feel guilty….and I don't feel guilty about my stance. You base yours on your own morality…you impose your views on the unborn. I base mine on what God says…and God says same sex unions, sex outside marriage is sin.

I believe in God……you believe in yourself, who you have made god.

 

I'd make a pretty good God actually, I'm far more loving and benevolent than the guy who currently has the job. For one thing, I'd make some tweaks to the inner working of physics and weather so that tornadoes aren't killing children in churches. I'd create some rainstorms over the dry parts of the world where people live so they might better grow food to survive. I'd hold a press conference and kindly ask people to stop killing other people in my name, or being mean to other people in my name. I'd take the writers of the bible to court for slander and libel.

And, I'd ask that, if you do truly believe in the message of Christ, you leave the judgments up to me and just try to get along with each other.

 

Junkieturtle

Ya think so? Sure based on what you think the standard of good is….which is so below Gods. For you right can be wrong and wrong can be right. You don't obviously want to step on anyones toes….lets make everything acceptable…to please everyone. What would you know about God?

Wow…ok so adults can die but kids you would save. LMAO You are a hoot ya know it. Your PRO-ABORTION….YOUR ALL FOR KILLING UNBORN CHILDREN YET YOU BASH GOD FOR THE WEATHER. LMAO I am laughing so hard…your are truly a riot. Your logic……no your lack of it…amazes me. What does the weather have to do with starving children? Man has enough food on the planet to feed everyone on it….man is the problem not God. You obviously think man is good and god is bad. We are born evil…look at the pain and heartbreak people cause. We have free will….your kind of world would involve robots because no one could measure up to what you think they should. LOL

LMOA…..slander? Oh honey…this by far was not your finest moment. LMAO



And, I'd ask that, if you do truly believe in the message of Christ, you leave the judgments up to me and just try to get along with each other.[/QUOTE]

 

I know what good and evil is, despite your ability to vilify to absolute extremes anyone who does not share your worldview and mindset.

I bash your God because he allows tornadoes to kill innocent children...while they are in church praying to him. That may be the only example I listed regarding children, but it's most certainly not the only one I could have listed. However, I did not intend on sitting here for hours listing every possible wrong I could think of. Trust me, when I got into office, there would be some sweeping changes.

You are correct, man does have enough food, however, that food is not usually in the places it needs to be to feed the ones who really need it. Instead, we throw away tons and tons of food every day across this country simply because it was 5 hours old and no longer fresh. That's incredibly wasteful and just plain apathetic when there are so many who would benefit from it.

I do not think man is good, and God is bad. I believe that both are both. If God created the world, then he is in charge of it, and when he allows heinous atrocities to be committed, some in his own name, I take issue with that. So, I'd fire him and start doing a much better job of taking care of my "children". If I was God, I wouldn't send a child to any woman that was just going to have an abortion to begin with. He's omnipotent and all-knowing, right? Why he does that is beyond me. Seems pretty apathetic to me, what about you? If humans are painting targets on the unborn as you say, God is manning the skeet shooter.

But, I'll repeat my last line for you, because I think your arguments could use a little bit of this. No, a lot.


And, I'd ask that, if you do truly believe in the message of Christ, you leave the judgments up to me and just try to get along with each other.

 

Junkieturtle said,

According to your interpretation and opinion….all based on YOUR STANDARD OF THINGS. And you do not do the same to others? Do you consider yourself tolerant?
Of course I think my Worldview is the right one. What is wrong with that, tell me? You think I am wrong…so you imply that there is a right. What is that right?

See you bash my faith….at least you admit that you have no tolerance for those you oppose. Great…now we are getting somewhere. Just say this….I believe women have the right to KILL THEIR HUMAN BABIES. LOL

You do not understand my God…so I am not even going to try to change your mind. Some peoples hearts are so hardened that nothing anyone can say would make a difference. And you have heard me before on this. But this time you show your intolerance…and hatred towards people who do love and honor God.
Sweeping changes…..LOL Like Obama promised and delivered. And one of those changes……..SILENCE AND DO AWAY WITH ALL CHRISTIANS.

NO EXCUSE. We put a man on the moon for crying out loud…no place is too far to take food and it could be done. It is not Gods fault…it is mans fault that they do not share.

But you don't believe there is a god remember…….. and you would do better. LMAO I am not even going to ask. I will say this……you could make a case for Hitler ya know it? God was the one who did the murders…Hitler was the pawn…his robot.

Try to get along….sure. We are like night and day…light and dark….black and white…..sour and sweet…off and on….total opposites. Our worldviews are vastly different and it all is based on God belief. We probably would never agree on anything. I can not condone something or go to bat for it if I think its wrong…and your worldview is wrong. I have the right to say that…as you have the right to stick to yours. Or did god decide how you were to believe? Hey maybe your just a robot…that does not think? Maybe nothing you say and do matters…?

 

As a consequentialist myself I think your position has some flaws, for one you can alleviate poverty and crime via education and sound economic policy probably a lot easier than by encouraging abortions, although they would also have an effect. Making it illegal to have kids is entirely unjustified unless the parents are entirely incompetent and incapable of taking care of them.

 

Let's just abort all blacks then since they're more likely to grow up criminals than whites are according to statistics.

 

Wouldn't it be better to facilitate social conditions that divert the need for criminal activity and culture in which people are born into that creates such criminals? No abortion wouldnt be an ethical let alone an effective solution.

 

What you're talking about here is something that would be forced, with takes away choice, which makes this a forced eugenics issue, not a pro-choice decide-for-yourself abortion issue like we currently have in America. I see the point you were trying to make, however misguided and sensationalist it may have been, but you're just plain wrong.