Is Andrew Tate's popularity among young men a result of male bashing?

I can offer a lot of more details about the "manosphere" as this conversation goes on. I'll also start posting some video clips we can talk about regarding Tate. You can judge for yourself if you think there is more context that would make his comments acceptable.

Before I get to the videos, the "manosphere" can be divided into a few groups (please note that I did not come up with any these terms; these are terms used within the "manosphere"):

The mythopoetic movement - This goes back to the 1980s or so, with Robert Bly being the big name. I can go into more detail, but by and large, they basically said there was a crisis in male identity and they turned to fiction/literature/art to try to help men find identity and purpose leaning heavily on a Joseph Campbell style hero's journey. I have no beef with these guys. I happily read their books.

MRAs (Men's Rights Activists) - These guys point to a lot of issues facing men -- higher suicide rates, higher conviction rates, male depression, negative portrayals of men in media, disparate outcomes in divorce and custody, involuntary circumcision, male victims of violence not being taken as seriously, etc. . . . and they normally blame women and then go into the red pill or incel space. They make a lot of good points when they are identifying issues facing men, but frankly, I think just moving away from gender stereotypes is a better solution and it honestly addresses almost every grievance they have.

The pickup artist community - These guys are all about teaching you how to have sex with as many women as possible. Some of their stuff actually works, but I'd say most of their advice is unhealthy and their success can be duplicated by just working out a little bit, being confident, good hygiene, and some clothes shopping. Disclosure: I fell for some of this **** before.

The red pill - These are the biggest movers and shakers in the manosphere and Tate fits in this category. You remember that scene in the matrix where Morpheus (Tate literally compares himself to Morpheus) offers Neo a red pill or a blue pill? According to red pillers, the real Matrix is the anti-male, anti-masculine world we live in and they want to give you the red pill to get out of it, which normally consists of courses they sell online that offer some vague good advice (work out, form social relationships with other men, learn some confidence, learn to handle rejection), but most of their content is about complaining about women. The biggest concept in the RP community is "sexual market value." They see dating as an economic exchange and want you to increase your value through a combination of looks, money, and "game." Which they will, of course, help teach you for a few thousand dollars. They obviously have a lot in common with the pickup artist community. However, it's a victim mindset community. As much as they talk about self-improvement, more of their focus is on blaming women for all of their problems. They see feminism as the main cause of male suffering.

The blue pill - Okay, these guys don't really count as part of the manosphere so much as they are a reaction to it. They encourage guys to "just be themselves," often agreeing with some of the better self-help that the red pillers are sharing (though the blue pillers don't charge for it), but focusing on accepting more "feminine" traits, like accepting the emotional parts of your life (even crying!) and getting away from the pressures put on men by gender role expectations. When it comes to dating, they tell men that emotional bonds are more important than your looks, your car (one of the biggest concerns red pillars have), your money, or your status. The manosphere hates these "beta cucks."

The black pill - These guys think that both the red pillers and the blue pillers are too naive. The ONLY thing that matters, according to them, is looks. Personality, money, status, and the rest of it doesn't matter. All that matters is how you look and you can do very little to change that. It's mostly genetics. Red and black pillers really like the whole 1-10 scale for looks, and black pillers say you can go from, say, a 6 to maybe a 7 with grooming, working out, and dressing well, but the universe has dealt you a hand and you have to play that hand and there's little you can do about it. You are either a "giga chad" who will get laid almost every night, or you aren't. To their credit, these guys often give at least SOME good advice to single men about focusing on themselves for a change and on their friendships with other men rather than be distracted by the obsession with finding a girlfriend. They also don't spend as much time blaming feminism for their problems.

Incels - This is the dark side of the black pillers. They agree with the black pill. But they are angry about their situation and all of their focus is on their anger, especially toward women.

Anway, I can get into more in a bit, maybe go over common themes and terms in these communities like "misandry" and "hypergamy" (that's a big one for them), "Chad", "Stacy."

 

The main reason for male bashing is that men are the only birth group against whom Hate Speech is accepted.

 

You can refrain from bashing men without also celebrating a sex trafficking woman basher.

 

Slander highlighted.

Otherwise true -- we point out very many real problems facing men.

I, myself do not oppose circumcision -- in my opinion opposition to Judaism and Islam is the main fault of MRM. Notice that Andrew Tate is a Muslim.

 

I made a commitment to oppose Misogyny -- as soon as Misandry becomes socially unacceptable.

 

It isn't slander and I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about the red pill community. And, yes, they definitely resort that that. And Tate is a fake Muslim. He brags about not reading books, so there's no way he's read the Quran.

 

Then you don't actually care about equality.

 

I don't see anybody celebrating anybody.

 

It's only accepted because men generally aren't bothered.

Look at the way Andrew Tate is being discussed here do you think it bothers him?

 

I'm not sure you know what the equality means. Misandry is much more common and much more far-reaching into the past then misogyny.

If you cared about equality you would agree with him.

But because he doesn't perform as in saying negative things about Andrew Tate you can't agree with him your position is partisan politics nothing more.

 

actually, he is bringing attention to Misandry

 

he got people talking, I think that is a good thing, don't have to like him personally, but he is spot on about many things

 

Tate encourages misogyny

 

Including his hatred of women? Why is that good?

 

why is hating men good? neither is good, nice to see people finally push back on Misandry

 

No one claimed hated men is good. Tate hates women (and all men besides himself and his brother, by the way) and you are fine with that. The dude literally pretended to be a woman to scam ****ing WWII veterans out of their money . . . and you think that is "pushing back against misandry"? And why are you upset that people push back on misogyny.

 

@DEFinning

I forgot a really important addition to that list of manosphere elements.

Tradcons - Traditional conservatives. People who want to move back to more "traditional"* gender roles but don't push (and often intensely dislike) the hookup "nail as many bitches as possible" message the red pill is selling. They often just do this out of personal interest, such as wanting to be a housewife who takes care of the home and raises the kids while the husband is at work, rather than suggesting everyone should be living this way. I don't have a problem with this one, either. But some want to push things further and want restrictions on birth control, don't think women should vote (something they share with a lot of red pills), and want to outlaw no-fault divorce. Most of the influencers in this space are women ("tradwives"). They also occasionally side with the blue pill folks when it comes to men's development, since the red pill definition of what it means to be a man involves doing whatever you want and not answering to no one, whereas the blue pills and the tradcons agree that men have obligations and should live with some kind of discipline.

 

Hard to find?

 

Wow. There is a lot to absorb, in your two posts. Thank you for offering me a guided tour, as it were, into an online galaxy, I was only vaguely aware existed. Clearly, you know the terrain well, from personal experience.

I was aware of the men's movement, to try to recapture some elements of manhood, which had been lost to the past: the "mythopoetic" movement, though I'd not retained a knowledge of that term. I'd heard of Bly, and have long been familiar with, and had a positive view of, Campbell (I am really fascinated with mythology, and believe it stores much valuable information and insight into our species).

I was also aware of those who are the counterpart to those advocating for issues specific to men, as in the medical/health field, the MRAs. As a man, I of course pay attention, whenever someone is pointing to male specific issues. While that is a focus that I, like you, do not consider chauvinistic, much less misogynistic, and think there's information worth promoting, in that, I still feel that those on the women's side, generally have more legitimate beefs, with the way society operates. Maybe because I've always accepted (and still do) that gender will be an important consideration in human society, for better or worse, I haven't given really serious consideration to the idea you advocate, that simply moving away from gender roles would address all of those issues. My first impression of that view is that there seems a bit of truth to it, but that it would be less than as comprehensive a solution, as you suggest, particularly if we consider the men's rights activists along with those making similar arguments, but regarding women (WRAs?). IOW, I have long seen it as desirable to move away from immutable gender stereotypes, but see this as being a very slow process and, in practical conceptions of time, one that will still be limited, in the extent of its progress in that direction, it is realistic to expect.

I imagine it will not be surprising to you that I am also aware of those selling the "secrets" of how to score with women; the earlier books, I believe, were just called "how to meet women," which sounds akin to self-help psychology titles, on topics from how to make friends, to how to be a better conversationalist, how to be assertive, or build self confidence, get what you want, influence others, etc. As evolved concepts of the "pickup line," it seems apparent that these pickup artist perspectives would have a tendency to objectify women. I am allowing myself the time to digest the concept, that all of these diverse groups-- all of the different "pill" philosophies, and communities, you list-- fall under the same umbrella as the MRAs and mythopoetics. But clearly they are all part of a sort of spectrum.

Your including the curveball of adding a group of women to the manosphere mix, only adds to mind's required processing time, for optimal assimilation, and clear differentiation, of the different groups. So, while it sounds like we've only scratched the surface of the wealth of information, you're ready to share-- and thank you, for this education-- give me a beat or two, to catch up with you. I will reply with my comments on the rest of the groups you catalogue, soon.

 

Not really. Just hard to provide in a digestible way. For example, I found an almost hour long video that I want to share with you, but I also don't want to fall into this whole "Here, watch an hour of video and then you can talk to me" trap, which is both a little irresponsible and may be against forum rules. I'll give you that video today, but I want to clarify that I'm open to actually discussing it or even giving you minute marks that back up my claims.

 

I can definitely link to more women in that space. And I apologize for the braindump. It's just such a frustrating place, and a topic I'm passionate about. I agree with most of the grievances these men have. And the left tends to ignore those problems or blame them all on men, and the right offers mostly bad advice that makes things even worse.

 

I understand that. I wouldn’t want to watch an hour long video anyway.

 

Nor should you have to, and I'd be a lesser person for demanding that. So let's do this: of all of the things I've said regarding Tate, is there a specific accusation that you'd like to focus on?

 

I'm just going to throw out one other quick video here: a woman who agrees that men are facing a serious crisis, and she's also explicitly anti-feminist, despite being a leftist. The left has turned against her and so has the right. But I think she does a far better job than Tate. The Male Loneliness Epidemic - YouTube. Also, even if she had nothing else going for her, she's bringing back the Peter Pan collar.

 

as I said, both Misogyny and Misandry are equally bad

and yes, society is pushing back against Misandry