Junkieturtle said, Oh yea. What was abortion when it was illegal? If it was considered good…..why was it illegal and considered immoral? The same reason today why its so private a surgery that women won't admit to having one. How many women who have had abortions and were proud of it admitted it here. Surely statistics would show that I would not be the only one sharing an abortion story. Its moral and legal….you tell me why not? Why is it still after approaching forty years…is abortion still a controversial topic one that seems to divide the nation? In our everyday lives? Like how? Mowing the lawn and crushing insects? Are you comparing the life in the womb to roadkill? I think you are putting more importance to animals we kill. The steers life is more valuable than the unborn….the pet parakeet…..mans best friend, the dog. To the moral relativist….it is not. To the pro-choicer/proabort…..it is not. The life in the womb is nothing. There ya go….our species is nothing above animals in a barnyard. Wow. So your childs life…if killed or snuffed out is equivalent to a pig in a sty….that dies of old age. Well totally different for the person who champions abortion. A barely functional life form? Hell the heart starts beating around 22 days after conception….unreal. Soul? why would you believe we have souls? I do think however that people who hold the pro-choice position have less heart capacity. You just can only feel so much love for others….your love is based more on self love. "It is ultimately the human mind that makes a person a person, and without that, without the sentience and self-awareness and intelligence that sets us apart from other lifeforms, there's nothing that sets us apart. And since we've demonstrated since the beginning of time that other forms of life are not important, why is a fetus any different, especially when it's the mother's body that has to support it and bear the consequences of it's existence? Why does the mother's right to self-determination suddenly go out the window? You don't automatically get to use the tired cop-out that the mother had sex and therefore must carry her pregnancy to term." So my brother in law who is mentally challenged has less right to live than you do? He is not fully a functioning human being? Well there might be nothing that sets you apart…I will agree…..but there is something that sets me apart and I am proud of it. I value life….all life. YOU DO NOT. And that says way more about your capability to function with emotion and balance than it does about me. I am saying the woman is responsible for the pregnancy. She took the risk…created life…..and should take responsibility for nine months for that life. Then she can go on her merry way…living her life. I must have missed this I try to answer everything. I have not been on much the last few days…I take care of my two grandchildren full time and some days I can't get on. What post was it?
It is my opinion .as your comments show .that this discussion is fluff to you ..you champion abortion you don't think that in the womb is much the equivalent of a barnyard animal or insect .and you just like to stick it to pro-lifers because you know they care. I retract nothing.
It's controversial because your side makes a controversy of it. You don't see people on the left doing this when they aren't responding to criticisms or attacks from your side. It's your side that constantly wants to have a conversation about it, to shame women who've done it, and to prevent women from having that option in the future. I guarantee that if your side shut it's mouth, you wouldn't hear the uproar about it from the pro-choice movement anymore. This quote you're replying to here on it's own does not have the proper context because it's explained in subsequent sentences. That's odd, you're usually arguing the opposite. Have I talked some sense in to you? Are you only able to respond to individual quotes taken completely out of context? Not looking good for your side if you have to resort to tricks. I have less heart capacity now, huh? Prove it. With facts. Otherwise you're just blowing hot air. Was your brother-in-law born? If you answer yes, this is a moot issue and completely inapplicable to the discussion we are having about abortion, which occurs BEFORE you are born. So, yes or no? And why should she have to do that? I don't stick anything to anyone. There's really no point in doing so. I argue my position, and I don't hide behind emotion-grabbing phrases and ad hominem. I am sorry if my pro-choice stance on this issue offends you, but I myself am not trying to do so, just as I'm sure you aren't either. Why would adults need to do things like that? My entire post was actually in response to a different person, and so that last sentence was not directed at you.
So the pro-life doctor was wrong? Was Carl Sagan wrong? Was world renowned embriologist Lewis Wolpert wrong? Is this biology textbook wrong? http://biology.franklincollege.edu/Bioweb/Biology/course_p/bioethics/When does human life begin.pdf This doctor? - Dr. David Magnus as quoted in The New Scientist The reality is that doctors and scientists have their own individual theories. There is no consensus regarding the beginning of life. The fact that identical twinning can occur up to 13 days after conception puts a big hole in your theory.
I believe you admitted in a previous thread to having had an abortion yourself. Why then, do you feel you have the right to demonise women for making exactly the same decision you did?
I make no excuse for what I did. Although I did not know anything about fetal development and PP certainly did not inform me about is…I take full responsibility. Today the information women have about abortion and fetal development is incredible. Science knows a lot more then it did. With that said….I know exactly what I did and it was morally wrong on every level. Have you ever regretted doing something that you wish you could change? Maybe the information given to you was wrong…or you did not make an educated decision based on the information? ARe you saying that we never as human beings can learn by our mistakes? And that we should not share our experiences and the information we have learned? I believe my actions were just what they were. I killed a living human being. I regret the abortion I had. I regret everything about it and I suffered for it. You have no idea, none whatsoever. You can educate yourself with all the latest information…read all there is to read…but still there is no way you can comprehend this topic the way someone does who has gone through it. I am demonizing not the women who get them…they know what they did no one has to tell them. I work with women who regret…. If anything I am demonizing pro-choicers position for supporting this immoral act and who want it to continue.
Cady said, "So the pro-life doctor was wrong? Was Carl Sagan wrong? Was world renowned embriologist Lewis Wolpert wrong? Is this biology textbook wrong?" ARe all my sources wrong? The medical sources even presented to Congress .all bogus? Carl Sagan ..a pot smoking, UFO believing atheist? Ok .yea right. http://biology.franklincollege.edu/Bioweb/Biology/course_p/bioethics/When does human life begin.pdf This doctor? - Dr. David Magnus as quoted in The New Scientist Well for as many who you find I will find that say its wrong. I think we should err on the side of life. You don't see that life as anything special so killing it for you even in the ninth month is nothing.
Thank you, now we can dispense with the "scientific fact that life begins at conception" talking point. I think we should err on the side of existing life.
But just because you feel regret for a decision you made, doesn't mean other women will feel the same. Shouldn't you allow them to make their own choices about their lives? You made your choice, so why not let others make theirs?
I have the right as a United States citizen to change my mind and to fight for what I think is right. And that is what I am doing. You do not have to like it and have the right to voice opposition. We have laws in this country and they are in place for many reasons….to protect people against themselves, from other people, to protect property and free speech etc. I would imagine that you might be opposed to many such laws…and in that case have the right to voice opinion about them. This is what is happening with the Arizona law in the Supreme Court…and also Obamas Health Care law. OPPOSITION. It does not matter if one changes their mind about an issue…people change world views, opinions…positions and the fact that I had a change of heart based on my faith, based on scientific evidence…etc is not the issue. I am not forcing anyone away from abortion clinics physically. I am abiding by the laws of the country on safe and peaceful demonstration. You would tell me I don't have that right, that I should keep my mouth shut? Had people kept their mouth shut and done nothing about slavery…we would probably be able to own slaves today. But people had a change of heart….and realized morally it was wrong. I made a mistake back in 1975….and today I base everything first on my faith…and what God says is morally right and wrong. When He came into my life….my attitude my life changed. I no longer live to what society tells me is right or wrong…what is important for me is what God says is right and wrong. He says to stand on the Word….and the Word is against abortion. I also base it on what science says about life in the womb and what evidence it has for life. Why not let people smoke wherever they want? Is it fair to the smoker to have restrictions? Is it fair for the mother or father who do not want to seat belt their kids in the car according to the laws that force them to face them looking back instead of looking forward? Is it fair that in some states the law says you must wear a helmet when you ride a motorcycle? Is it fair that you can't ride in the back of an open truck in some places? Shouldn't alcoholic beverages be banned….because in the end the banning would save lives on our roads, domestic abuse fights…and save people from cancers associated with it?
My apology in advance if I'm out of line, offered in the spirit of utmost respect and I hope with an obvious sensitivity, I share this. I believe most of the time women are victims of abortion too. When one is most vulnerable and the "support" system is saying it is really the best thing or at least it is really OK to do something chances are most, even if struggling against it will make this choice. Judges and a part of our society and world told women it is your right to destroy your personal property. If the developing person is really, truly, only just another possession, a piece of personal property and not a responsibility or loving duty than they would be right, at least from the worldly or fallen viewpoint. The burden the surviving victims of abortion carry must be shared by those who "helped" her along that path and those who help her on the brighter path she walks today. I have no doubt that you are forgiven but I understand that it is sometimes hardiest to forgive oneself. I know of others who struggle in this cold and impersonal world with a choice once made and I know they are also forgiven too. I understand your hope to keep others from a pitfall that once ensnared you. I wonder if that desire to save or assist others comes from the part that is in His image?
There is no consensus, scientific or otherwise, that life begins at conception. The decision is rightly in the hands of the one person whose health and life are at stake in the pregnancy and childbirth.
Cell division/reproduction is not a sign of life? Is that a universal belief. Why is that a transient condition that women are equipped, designed even, to support successfully looked at as an untoward condition or disease by you? Are you a germaphobe? Not that there is anything wrong with that but might explain your position on why you see the unborn as less than human.
When I accepted Christ….this became a part of my testimony….my story of sin, not only with abortion but I also was not married and obviously was having sex outside God's boundaries for my life. MY SIN SPLASHED ONTO OTHERS….the one that paid the biggest price was my child…that I hired to have killed so that my little problem would go away. Well the problem went away…but bigger problems arose. Now I did not start regretting my abortion until twenty some years ago…when my niece was born at 23 1/2 weeks. I was standing over her and I was talking to a nurse who said….can you believe they abort at that age. And I went into a bathroom sat on the floor and got my first panic attack. I started reading about fetal development and wow….I was shocked at what I learned. I tried to put it out of my mind. I had two children of my own and I did go to church so I owned a Bible. I started reading it…but when I hit the scriptures that convicted me…I would put it away. I suffered for years and years….just like you said….no one to talk too because I was ashamed. Could not talk to my husband because he thought I was ridiculous…it was his child I killed and he knew it at the time…we did it. It about broke my marriage up literally. I grew up in a Christian home and my parents were Ozzie and Harriet…and devoted to the faith….I should have known better. My mother did know about the abortion and never was judgmental only sharing the scriptures that I knew to be true. She said I needed to go to Christ. On 9-11 as those towers were coming down…I asked the Lord to come into my heart and asked forgiveness and I felt like a new person. I knew that I had to share my story of sin…how it affected me. I stand up not only for Christ and what His Grace did for me…but to try to help especially the post abortive women who also killed her child. There is forgiveness….and a future. I am so blessed today…and I know the minute I die….who will be waiting for me. Christ will not be alone. I hope that shows or gives you a background about why I do this. It is not about forcing someone to do something they don't want to do…but when you know in your heart that something is morally wrong, that you have done it too…the love that you share in Christ you want to share with others. If I did not care about people….I would sit at home and do nothing. There are speakers that go around the country speaking about all sorts of things…the crimes they committed….driving drunk….abuse….you name it. But when abortion is brought up people think it is so different….that all abortion is not wrong. I don't believe that…and I think, well I know that babies have been saved after the mothers have heard or talked to people who put the message out there about abortion negatives. Hearts can be changed I have seen it.
A zygote is alive, but life was present before conception in the egg and sperm, so life doesn't magically begin at conception. I don't look at pregnancy and childbirth as a disease, but it is a condition that permanently damages a woman's body and is potentially a risk to her health and life, and therefore she should never be forced to continue a pregnancy. That's a misrepresentation of the pro-choice position. The unborn are human, just as the egg and sperm and every cell in the body are human, but they are not necessarily human beings.
that is not a middle ground, middle ground is you decide for yourself and others will do the same, no one gets to choose for another
life begins before conception, the shells we call our bodies are but a temporary vehicle we drive through this life... at what point a spirit enters a body is up for debate, most likely though it is when consciousness begins, at about 23 weeks... when a pregnancy is aborted, either naturally or medically induced, the spirit will find another
For many women who, out of desperation, were driven to self-abortion or back alley abortions, there was no future. Think how your life might have been different if abortion had been illegal.
Cady When the egg and sperm come together it forms another complete human being….the egg is not a complete human being…the sperm is not a complete human being. Yes you do I disagree. You do not see nor value any life in the womb….from the moment of conception to the moment of delivery. Permanently damages? So every mother on earth was damaged by giving birth….your mom included? LMAO No she should be able to walk in any abortion clinic even at 38 weeks….and kill the life inside her…..wow. And you say you don't think pregnancy and birth is a disease?
That is their choice. Some hookers feels they have no choice….but they do. A lot of people who hurt and kill themselves do because of depression and illness. You can't legalize something just because a FEW WOULD TRY TO HURT THEMSELVES. And PP said that before Roe in 1973………MOST ALL ABORTIONS WERE DONE IN DOCTORS OFFICES. So that statement just does not add up to what you are saying, no does the U.S Census numbers prior to Roe. My life might have been tough at the time. I might have been embarrassed…whatever…but today my two kids would have had another sibling…and our family would number something different. There is a void that ….that abortion would have left. I would not have been suicidal wishing I had chosen a different decision…..oh yes how my life would have changed. I WOULD NOT HAVE KILLED A LIVING HUMAN BEING….MY CHILD. You can't possibly grasp that….and no doubt never will, I find that so so sad.
Not my strength….but the strength of the Lord…He is the one who came upon me and changed me….nothing I did…but ask. I love people and want them to know that with abortion come consequences and heartache not necessarily at the time but in their future. I am not saying that every women would go through this…but after working in this field…I have met enough women who have shared their stories and given their reasons….that IMO the vast majority regret and suffer silently. It is those women that my heart reaches out too. No one talks about abortion like its an acceptable thing to do. Even the pro-aborts…..most say, oh its a tough the hardest decision a woman ever could make. Why? Pro-aborts …in the grand scheme of the universe….even those who deny God…know that abortion is morally wrong. It is not talked about….this surgery that is one of the most performed in the country. I keep my eyes heavenward and He gives me strength but He is to be praised not me. I hope you understand.
No, the intent is to make the consequences of having sex as punishing to women as it is punishing to men. Historically, women had more punishing consequences for having sex than men. Then, in the 20th century, men had more punishing consequences for sex than women. I think it may be time now to equalize the punishments. Currently men can go to jail for it, maybe women should start to go to jail for it too.
