Moses was a Muslim who

" the truth of actual historical facts " ? WOW - teach me , where did you find " your TRUTH + historalic facts , ? In the Bible ? LOL or from Christian fundaments crazies.

I've not read the quran but a translation easily accessible as a handy source of referencee to check out and disprove your distortions .

All you're doing is going around in circles , deflection + diversionery tactics. How many more times do I have to post explanation to Sura 9;5 ? or are you're just being obtuse ?

Read my post # 196 above . ? IMO - i the writer fully explains the meaning of the Arabic word "Kaafir, Kafir, Kufar "

Frankly most of you posts sounds like fabricated bigotry . Quran is in arabic , why dont you back your BS interpretations with links to authorative translations .

I wont fek about searching all the Sura numbers , but here's Sura 8 , I'm in no mood to read it all. where does it mention JEWS + CHRISTIANS ?

http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/noframes/ch8.html


INstead of dishonestly posting vague Sura numbers , who dont you tell me the sentances where the Quran instructs muslims to Kill JEWS and Christians " from PRECISE TRANSLATIONS FROM original Arabic , if you dont mind. (wink)

 

Wrong again, wanren -


Where does the quran tell muslims to kill People of the Book, ? Please dont just give vague/dubious - Sura numbers , C + P the exact passages from the quran with verifiable authorative links .


------------

btw - Here's IMO a detailed explanation of the term "People of the Book "

Yes, in the Quran and Hadith, Jews and Christians (people of the book).

 

You refuse to read the Quran, Hadith and the supporting historical facts about it, instead insisting that your understanding about the subject is the accurate one, how can that be? You should step out of the circle and read other sources other than the anti West materials.

Kafir means unbelievers, and didn't I post the sura verses that mention Christians, Jews and pagans that Muslims must fight? Or have you intentionally ignore them all?

Here is one source from Arab authors that they don't want Muslims to read about;

According to Muslim historians, the Meccans were actually quite tolerant of Muhammad preaching his new religion. Mecca was an open society where different religions were respected. Polytheists, Jews and Christians lived and worshipped side-by-side, especially during the holy months, when pagan pilgrims would travel long distances from beyond the city to perform their rituals at the Kaaba.

Muhammad brought on the resentment of the local people by breaking with tradition and cursing other religions:

When the apostle openly displayed Islam as Allah ordered him, his people did not withdraw or turn against him, so far as I have heard, until he spoke disparagingly of their gods. When he did that, they took great offence and resolved unanimously to treat him as an enemy. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 167)
Although asked to stop, Muhammad continued to stir up trouble by “condemning” the local religion, causing the Meccans great anxiety:
[The Meccans] said they had never known anything like the trouble they had endured from this fellow. He had declared their mode of life foolish, insulted their forefathers, reviled their religion, divided the community and cursed their gods (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 183).
Not only was this an insult to the people and their traditions, but it also threatened the local economy, which depended on the annual pilgrimage. Still, they were so eager to live at peace, that they offered Muhammad money if he would stop stirring up trouble:
They decided to send for Muhammad and to negotiate and argue with him... When he came and sat down with them, they explained that that they had sent for him in order that they could talk together. No Arab had ever treated his tribe as Muhammad had treated them, and they repeated the charges... If it was money he wanted, they would make him the richest of them all; if it was honor, he should be their prince; if it was sovereignty, they would make him king. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 18

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-pers-new-religion.htm

I know what you will say, this is anti Mohammed.

Here is another one focus on sura 9.5 notice how Muslims explain this verse that it is about self defence forgetting the fact that Mohammed actually supports war unlike Jesus Christ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-Tawba_5

Not only that if we read the historical events of that incident we will learn that it was Mohammed who have been provoking for war and when the Meccans responded to it Muslims call that self defence.

The Muslims were actually the first to resort to physical violence, when Sa’d bin Abu Waqqas picked up a camel’s jawbone and struck a local polytheist who was “rudely interrupting” his group of praying Muslims. "This was the first blood to be shed in Islam" (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 166).

The new converts were quite aggressive, particularly when they could get away with it, which was the misfortune of others. An example is when one of the strongest Muslims, Hamza, struck a Meccan leader by the name of Abu Jahl ‘violently” with his bow for speaking in an insulting way to Muhammad:

When he got to the mosque [Hamza] saw [Abu Jahl] sitting among the people, and went up to him until he stood over him, when he lifted up his bow and struck him a violent blow with it, saying, 'Will you insult him when I follow his religion, and say what he says? Hit me back if you can!' (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 185).
Although Abu Jahl did not retaliate against the more powerful man at the time, he later mistreated his Muslim slaves, almost certainly as a consequence of his public humiliation.

The Muslims would later be the first to declare war at Mecca, and were subsequently evicted. Even then, they were the first to renew hostilities as Muhammad ordered deadly raids against Meccan caravans from his new home in Medina.

Sura 9 also is about Mohammed's military expedition to Tabuk, Mohammed lead an army of about 40,000 Muslims into Byzantine territory thinking that the Byzantine were preparing to attack him upon reaching Tabuk there was no Byzantine army it was all an excuse by Mohammed to seize Byzantine territories and again provoke a war that he will then use as an excuse for self defence.

http://www.al-islam.org/restatement/34.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tabouk

The Battle of Tabouk (also called the Battle of Tabuk) was a military expedition, which, according to Muslim biographies, was initiated by the Prophet Muhammad in October, AD 630. Muhammad led a force of as many as 30,000 north to Tabouk in present-day northwestern Saudi Arabia, with the intention of engaging the Byzantine army. Though not a battle in the typical sense, if historical the event would represent the opening conflict in the coming Byzantine-Arab wars. There is no contemporary Byzantine account of the events, and much of the details come from later Muslim sources. Noting this, as well as the fact that the armies never met, some Western scholars have questioned the authenticity of the details surrounding the event;[1] though in the Arab world it is widely held as historical.

According to Muslim biographies not Christian or Westerners so don't tell me it is bigotry.

 

I cannot recall you mentioning "Kafir " - Al you kept rabbitting on was that the quran instructed muslims to kill "Jews and Christians " Go back on your own posts and see what you wrote. According to muslims People of the Book are not Kafirs .

You're right its from its Anti-Mohammed - Sounds like pure conjecture without evidence from a source I wouldnt consider to being any where near reiable or impartial .

"According to Arab Historians " Which ones ? Your site fail to name any ? LOL

.

.

O
Once again , that doesnt support your earlier falsehoods saying that Sura 9 instructed muslims to kill Jews and Christians .

All you're doing is posting the quranic equivalent of the Old Testament / the Hebrew Bible -
a subject I ' ve already covered two days ago . God's instructions to Moses/Joshua David etc., to kill all - those who worship[ other gods. .

If you've failed to read my posts then please do so before continuing with your ridiculous merry-go-Round / repetative bull crap.

In addition to my previous posts, with extracts from the "Holy Bible - get this

""You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you. Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight; your enemies shall fall by the sword before you." Leviticus, Chapter 26, verses 7-9

"When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." Deuteronomy 7:1-2,

"...do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them...as the Lord your God has commanded you..." Deuteronomy 20:16

There is not much doubt amongst Biblical scholars that the Hebrew Bible contains some highly charged non-ethical suggestions, some of which are no less than a call for a genocide. Biblical scholar Raymund Schwagerhas found in the Old Testament 600 passages of explicit violence, 1000 descriptive verses of God's own violent actions of punishment, 100 passages where God expressly commands others to kill people. Apparently, violence is the most often mentioned activity in the Hebrew Bible.

 

If you chose to stick to your false assumption that is fine with me, no compulsion, I only share with you what you don't know. Especially since you refuse to read the Quran, Hadith and other Islamic text to proof that your assumptions are wrong and your accusation that I provide false statements are actually truth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tabouk

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-pers-new-religion.htm

http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/noframes/ch9.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-Tawba_29

[9:30] The Jews said, "Ezra is the son of GOD," while the Christians said, "Jesus is the son of GOD!" These are blasphemies uttered by their mouths. They thus match the blasphemies of those who have disbelieved in the past. GOD condemns them. They have surely deviated.

 

I'm afraid you've not as yet presented any truths for me to deny.

You've diverted a thread about Moses to a thread about Mohammed, however I'll see
where this leads .

IMO - Quran -Torah.Tamud /Old-New Testamemnts are books full of contradictions. Its not all anti-Jewish + anti-christian , IS IT ? Can you not find anything in quran which doesnt condem Christians + Jews ?

Once again - I repeat , its no worse that the Bible .

Not so - OT's god directs Hebrews to invade + destroy Canaanite cities + those who worship other gods . Go check .

Nonsense - 6- 7th century Middle East - Jews + Christians were minorities , pagans/idolators were majorities . Quran does not ahve NT ? Duh ! you dont say . (hmmm )

.

“Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them.” Koran 2:191


Rubbish - thats your hate-filled interpretation.

How come UMer Al-Khattab did'nt kill Jews + Christians - Jerusalem ? Well the few Jews Byzantine Christians used as slaves . How come the CHRISTIAN Crusaders (with the Infallible Pope's blessings had such a good time slaughter Muslims + Jews as soon as they got to that "Holy Land " ?


How come it was not Muslims who gassed and roasted six million Jews ?

How come humankinds worse atroctiies was committed by those who profess to be Christians , when not with the Church's blessings then Churchmen remaining silent ?

"


Wanren translations from any language often leads to erroneous interpretations especially when the intent is maliscious.
I find that Sura 9:30 actually translates to

":Sahih International
The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded? "

I was once realiably told , that "People of the Book " Jews and Christians was not infidels. Kufar /Kaffirs.



..

 

So uou think there's a difference , do you ?

Now Let's , see whether this will sink in :

If you have no qualms about " OT wars being directed at enemies who wants to destroy Israel then wwhere's the difference about afew centuries later , the Qurans wars, enemies who wanted to destroy muslims . ? Are you saying your OT god justifies the most appalling atrocities in defence is "Israel" ? Hmmm. Sounds like a an extremely unjust + blinkered god.,. with one law for his favourites - chosen ones and another for the rest of humankind - great . !


btw - read my siggy abt God and historians. (wink )


tatty-byeeeee.

 

The difference is that in the OT there was no Jesus Christ yet, in the Quran there was already Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ change the OT concept of aggressive warfare, Quran change the image and over ride the teachings of Jesus Christ with Mohammed's that revert back to the OT of aggressive warfare by taking it one extreme step further a war of world wide conquest, in the OT it was only about the preservation of the Hebrew nation within Canaan or what is now known as Palestine that does not include Egypt, Persia, Rome, or Greece.

Another difference is that in the OT the Hebrews were in actual danger of being annihilated, Mohammed and the Muslims were not they are the ones who initiated wars.

 

Well, there you go, you refuse to accept what is clearly written in the Quran to kill all unbelievers, do not make friends with Christians and Jews etc. etc. Base on that what else can be said except to accuse me and those who understood Islam to be bigot, how about you for refusing to accept it, are you a bigot too?

Well if you were told that the People of the Book, Jews and Christians are not infidels then, those Muslim scholars who interpreted it to be so are all wrong or maybe who ever told you otherwise is not telling you the truth.

 

That could be another reason why got nailed to a cross. Truth is he lacked the wherewithall to confront + fight his enemies .

But are you telling me that Christians became "peace-lovers " and since then carried out "non-aggresives warfare " ?

Hahahaha - what a load of twaddle .


, in the OT it was only about the preservation of the Hebrew nation within Canaan or what is now known as Palestine that does not include Egypt, Persia, Rome, or Greece.

Rubbish . Egyptians/Persian/Roman /Greeks were all superior military powers , however the tribal Hebrew invaders,(runaway Egyptians slaves ) with no land of carried out the most savage onslaughts - on all weaker Canaanite city states - and forced conversion of those remaining Moabites/Jebusites Destroying ancient Canaanite culture + religion, replacing it with worshipping god of Moses - EL- Eloihim

MORE nonsense -

We've been over this before. . GO check we'd already covered it . The first muslims was warned to flee - seek refuge in Abyssinia - Mohamed fled to Medina. They'd certainly have been wiped out by Arabia' s pagan tribes had they not fought back. Unlike Jesus who couldnt raise a resistence force , ending up nailed to a cross to the cheers Jewish crowd . Inspite of Pontius Pilate's plea on Jeusus' behalf the Jewish crowd voted for Barabas's release and couldnt wait for Jesus's death .


Wanren - remove your blinkers ,



"What we do know of Jesus and Barabbas tell us how remarkably similar the two men were. Jesus was arrested as a rebel[4] by a Roman cohort[5] (600 soldiers) and additional temple police suggesting that he had many more than just twelve followers. Prior to his arrest, Jesus had engaged in the Temple Cleansing,[6] disrupting bankers and merchants and threatening to destroy the temple.[7] The night of Jesus' arrest he had equipped his disciples with swords[8] in anticipation of trouble; he and his followers always left Jerusalem for nearby Bethany before it got dark to avoid arrest or assassination.[9]

References :

4 -Mk. 14:48; Mt. 26:55; Lk. 22:52.
5 -- Jn. 18:12.
6 - Mk. 11:15-17; Mt. 21:12-13; Lk. 19:45-46; cf. Jn. 2:14-16.
7 - Mk. 13:1-2; Mt. 24:1-2; Lk. 21:5-6.
8 - Lk. 22:36-38.
9 - Mk. 11:11, 19; 14:1-3; Lk. 19:47-48.


12 Then the detachment of soldiers with its commander and the Jewish officials(A) arrested Jesus. They bound him 13 and brought him first to Annas, who was the father-in-law of Caiaphas,(B) the high priest that year. 14 Caiaphas was the one who had advised the Jewish leaders that it would be good if one man died for the people.(C)

Hmmmm.

 

As I've told you before , in a British court of law , we allow the accused to speak . I also try to be fair by listening to both sides,

. Here's what I've found + consider worth consideration against apparent narrow-minded prejudices :

Can Muslims be friends with Jews and Christians?

O YOU who have attained to faith! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for your allies: they are but allies of one another and whoever of you allies himself with them becomes, verily, one of them; behold, God does not guide people who are unjust. (Quran 5:51)

This verse is often quoted to show that Islam is intolerant.

Quran is a complete book of guidance and while studying various issues it should be kept in mind that a particular issue may be discussed over several chapters or several verses in the same chapter. A complete understanding can only be achieved by understanding the whole issue as presented over all the verses and chapters and not by looking at only part of the Quran. God specifically warns us against doing just that, upholding part of the Quran while disregarding the rest.



.. Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do you reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? - and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For God is not unmindful of what ye do. (Quran 2:85)

To understand the issue of befriending the Jews, Christians or people of any other faith, we have to study all the concerned verses from the Quran collectively.

Let us look at some other verses about this issue. The following two verses regulate relations with any people, regardless of faith:

As for such [of the unbelievers] as do not fight against you on account of [your] faith, and neither drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to behave towards them with full equity: for, verily, God loves those who act equitably. (Quran 60:

God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of [your] faith, and drive you forth from your homelands, or aid [others] in driving you forth: and as for those [from among you] who turn towards them in friendship; it is they, they who are truly wrongdoers! (Quran 60:9)


From the above verses, we learn that we are only discouraged from befriending those who fight Muslims because of their religion. Now let's go back to the verse immediately after 5:51, to see if it sheds some further light on the issue.

And yet you can not see how those in whose hearts there is disease vie with one another for their good will (the hostile Jews and Christians), saying [to themselves], "We do fear lest a change of fortune bring us disaster." But God may well bring about good fortune [for the believers] or any [other] event of His own devising, whereupon those [waverers] will be smitten with remorse for the thoughts which they had secretly harboured within themselves- (Quran 5:52)

During the time of the Prophet when the Jews and Christians were in open conflict with the Muslims, there were some Muslims who were more concerned about maintaining there alliances with the Jews and Christians at the expense of the Muslim community. The above verse is referring to such situations where Muslims with doubts in their hearts will ally themselves with the enemy.



Chapter 5 Verse 57 of the Quran makes it clear again, who are not to be taken as friends; O you who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but remain conscious of God, if you are (truly) believers. (Quran 5:57)

God teaches us throughout the Quran that there are righteous Jews and Christians. As such there is no prohibition for Muslims to be friends with Jews, Christians or people of any other faith who are of good character.

Quranic verses referring to the righteous Jews and Christians:

Of the people of Moses there is a section who guide and do justice in the light of truth. (Quran 7:159)

And We caused Jesus, the son of Mary, to follow in the footsteps of those (earlier prophets), confirming the truth of whatever there still remained of the Torah; and We sent him the Gospel, wherein there was guidance and light, confirming the truth of whatever there still remained of the Torah, and as a guidance and admonition unto the God-conscious. (Quran 5:46)

Verily, those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians - all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds-shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve. (Quran 2:62)

Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. (Quran 3:113-114)

And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God. They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account. (Quran 3:199)

The following verse from the Quran capsulates this issue:

O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other (not that you may despise (each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). (Quran 49:13)

====
Wanren - from that , it sounds like you've tried to deceive me with distortion and misrepresentations . Shame on you.


.... .

 

Rather Karl Marx was a muslim as Moses.Period.

 

Moses was a Jew. Islam is making a false claim, couched in an intellectual argument trying to make Islam sound mainstream, but a false claim none the less.

 

First you said you didn't read the Quran now you are interpreting Quranic verses as if you have read the Quran.

Typical argument to accuse those who do not agree with you and Muslim as bigots or prejudicial people, how about Muslims they surely don't agree with Christians are they bigot too?

Quranic verses are stand alone and has recited by Mohammed base on a situation, in sura 5:51 do not take Christians and Jews as friends...etc. has to do with Mohammed sudden change of attitude towards Christians and Jews because they refuse to follow him in waging war against the Meccans and are starting to doubt Mohammed's prophethood. It was Mohammed counter before others start to doubt him.

Another thing Quranic verses are not arrange in chronological order it jumps from one episode and timeline, the Quran is not a book that contain concise and chronological story it contains verses that praise God base on Mohammed's ideology and outlook. Sura 9 is consider Mohammed's last will and testament that basically declare war on Christians, Jews and everyone (including Muslims who refuse to follow him) who refuse to follow his Islam.

Yes, under British law innocent until proven guilty not in Muslim law they don't recognize British law.

 

The Qur'an is not holy writ. It is a doubtful critique of the true word of God. Mohammad was a false prophet. Nothing in the Qur'an is contiguous with the Bible. It is wholly contradictory to/of the Bible.

 

O K - now tell me do you believe the Bible to be "holy writ" the true word of yr god ?

Would you say the bible is not full of contradictions + ridiculous stories ?

 

Of coarse I believe that, more importantly, I am convinced that it is true. There are no contradictions in the Bible. None. There is only misunderstanding and misapplication and ignorence of context.

 

Only an american would admit to it
Thanks for confirming that there's absolutely nothing some people can't be made to believe. . I take it you're a creatonists , as well .

HAHAHAHA - ROFLMFAO - gertcha.


http://th249.photobucket.com/albums/gg230/pegould/th_LaughingSmiley.gif

 

It is a historical continuity that is the foundation of Biblical truth, as well as spiritual continuity. God has acted inside of history in the past, worldly perceptions aside, and he is acting inside history today and the evidence of that is the nation of Israel and all that is happening there. It is all prophecy in the past and in the future. It is not a hard puzzle to solve, unless you make it hard.

 

Its BS - and also obvious that your mind is so securely closed that no new information contrary to your indoctrination can enter.



read my siggy re god and history .

You on your road and me on mine .

CIAO .

 

Marx was an Atheist. Moses was an Israelite. Big Difference. do your research and not spew nonsense.


"Marx was an atheist from his childhood and remained such for the whole of the rest of his life." http://www.ewtn.com/library/Theology/ATHEMARX.HTM

 

Moses was actually a Zionist, the first and founder of Zionist. Moses has all the characteristic of a Zionist. Zionist are so smart that even Muslims unknowingly worship them, Mohammed was also a Zionist, the rest of the Arabs are just Muslims.