Parents of elemenatary schoolchildren advised that a little boy is now a girl

As I said you are the one asserting that it is nothing more than a feeling, onus on your to prove that, and if you think a simple definition is enough you are more deluded than I first thought.

Do provide your documented peer reviewed evidence that gender is purely a physical thing

 

Birth certificates (Documented and peer reviewed process), in which only the physical attributes are noted.(Purely physical)

Done.

Now how about you explain why there arent any fields included for "feelings", and then tell my why you and others think they are on the same level of provability, or importance.

It is nothing more than a feeling, as the body does not change at all. Unless of course you can link a Male turning Female due to his beliefs. Can't wait to see those links....

LOL@ the "simple definition" copout. That simple definition, and things like the BC which reinforce them throughout society say you are wrong.


I feel like a Million bucks....I feel like a million bucks....I feel like a Million bucks......why isnt my wallet cooperating???

 

nope not in the slightest.

Peer Reviewed - Evaluation of scientific, academic, or professional work by others working in the same field, please show the peer reviewed studies that deal with birth certificates.

Again you focus on your own presumption without supplying a shred of evidence to support it, you don't even know the purpose of a birth certificate do you?

your lack of biological knowledge is astounding for someone who attempts to prove a biological argument.

Gender development is complex, and there are many possible variations that cause a mismatch between a person’s biological sex and their gender identity.

Hormonal problems

Occasionally, the hormones that trigger the development of sex and gender may not work properly on the brain, reproductive organs and genitals, causing differences between them. For example, the biological sex (as determined physically by the reproductive organs and genitals) could be male, while the gender identity (as determined by the brain) could be female.

so do you consider the brain part of the human body?

and appeal to history does you no favours, and that is all you are doing .. just because history says such and such a thing is correct does not always make it so, you seem to forget (or ignore) that hormonal influences on the brain during fetal development concerning gender were unknown .. do try to educate yourself.

again you have yet to prove that gender is purely a physical thing and not a combination of physical and mental, and the above just highlights your lack of knowledge on the subject.

 

Society feels a birth certificate is valid, hence why we use them. As such, you saying "not good enough" doesn't matter. The proof is in their continued use.

Not a shred of evidence....my own presumtion....this would be the time to link proof that I was mistaken.
Which you didnt.

Because we both know a BC is exactly as I described. Link a Birth Cert that deals in feelings or just admit you're full of it.

Coming from someone who asserts that the unprovable is right on the same level as demostrable knowns...gotcha. I wont lose any sleep over your opinion on that.

Irrelevant angle. My case is that humoring these delusions is going too far. i never made the case that such delusions dont exist. Many, many, many delusional cases exist. Some think they are a different gender...some might think they're 5 people...some may think they're an animal...all delusions of the mind.

The difference here is that your side wants to play along with this one, but none of the others. I dont wish to play along. Feeling like a Female is not enough to make you one.

Speaking of educating ones self, you shouldnt be using the term "history" here as we still use these BC's today, and we'll use them tomorrow. I'm appealing to reality, which is something your side obviously has a problem taking in.

It's proven everyday when a certificate is marked "Male or Female" on the Gender line, using nothing more than the facts of the birth. It is you who needs to prove a need for anything more.

And you have not.

 

I feel pretty, does that make it so?

 

Facts are nothing. They mean nothing. If a person feels like a million bucks it doesn't matter if it's there or not. That person will feel like they can do something. That in the end is much more important then having the money.

So tell me, how do you know if the person on the street is a boy or a girl?

No it's not. Your fact is simply irrelevant to a conversation about feelings. It doesn't matter what she was born as. She could have been born with blond hair and she decided to permantently dye it blue. She has blue hair, and nothing is going to change that.

It can't be documented? How is this conversation being documented? By you and I writing it down. If we were in the street, people would hear us. And since this is a public story, it was documented it. The OP's link is direct proof of that. So let's stick to the facts shall we? We have a girl claiming she is a girl. That's all we need to hear.

She is free to change with the girls. Otherwise she is being discrimnated against.

1. Not a liberal, I'm a moderate with collective anarchist leanings.
2. How do you know what the Birth Certificate says? I don't remember seeing it in the link.

No it's not. They just simply stopped doing it after the first one died. But technology has come along ways. Doctors are just too afraid to do it again. And there are real transexuals out there. People who live life the way they want to.

Yes it is. It's called dsyphoria. Maybe not as spiritually as you profess, but dspyhoria is a real thing that affects people with gender identity problems.

And? How do you know that there weren't any mistakes made? Facts can be wrong, your omission here proves you agree with it. you haven't shown any evidence to suggest that her birth certificate matters, or for that matter what her birth certificate even says.

1. You didn't do what I asked. Read again, I asked you to post a link to how transexualism works.
2.First link is about a transgender. Not a transexual. They're two different things, similar, but two very different things.
3. Second link without a question isn't about gender identity, it's about his sexual orientation and sex drive. Also, your sources are certainly very questionable at least.
4 Your source confuses being a woman with what a woman is defined as by society.
"Beatty is undergoing hormone therapy, but says he still likes to present himself as "fem," with "lots of necklaces and rings and all and ribbons around my neck and things like that." He says he takes style cues from the famous gay author Truman Capote."
.http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment...tephen-ira-beatty-trans-man/story?id=16812020

So how about this, I'll clarify what I'm meant. I want you to explain to me the science behind what it means to be transexual. A good solid source, and we'll discuss the science behind it. Otherwise pointing out one or two explains in a population of thousands, means nothing.

No it doesn't. We don't judge someone by what a piece of paper in a hospital says. We judge people by how they present themselves to us. That's why your BC argument has no merit to it. It's irrelevant to how we judge people.

And? Why not let them prove it? You're judging someone before you even had a chance to meet them. That's just a bad way to live life.

Actually yes, science can. It's up to scientists to do it. The technology for changing someone's gender existed in the 1940's. We've come a long way since then.

What is worrying you about a boy changing with a girl? As far as I'm concerned, a girl is just changing with other girls.

 

Society felt slavery was valid for a very long time as well . .didn't make it right though, and I bet that the very same arguments you are using were used then as well.

The historical, the continued usage, the denial of evidence to the contrary of established beliefs etc etc.

and again with the unproved assumption that it is just a "feeling", prove required or you are just full of it.

Unprovable only to those who are myopic enough to view anything that is contrary to their slender views.

Funny really it was demonstrably known that black people were inferior to white people in the days of slavery.

so scientific facts rank as irrelevant to you .. says it all really, and just what has hormonal problems got to do with delusions . .you do understand how gestation works don't you and how gene expression can be influenced by hormones .. from the above reply I doubt you do.

and again the unproven assumption that it is a "feeling".

history is one second after the event, so yes it is historical and your appeal is nothing more than an appeal to common practice and appeal to tradition.

Reality is that gender is not just decided by a purely physical appearance, that is pretty much accepted in the scientific world.

You are wrong, you were the one who first made the premise that gender issues are nothing more than a "feeling", the onus is on your to prove that point .. you haven't.

So you are saying then that if BC were changed tomorrow to include "none of the above" on the gender line then nothing else is required to prove there is a "none of the above", how inane.

- - - Updated - - -

No relevance at all unless you can prove that gender issues are purely a "feeling" .. care to try?

 

Hahaha..."Facts are nothing, they mean nothing". That's the nonsense position you are taking.

It sums up everything you've said prior and anything coming next,and I wont waste any more of my time. Continue to live in fantasy land.

 

You heard it here first folks. Birth Certificates are the new slavery....derp.

The proof is needed from you. You seem to claim it's more than a feeling...so tell us which "more" is it. how does it physically manifest itself so we can see this "more"? You're making the claim, so back it up.

Nope. unprovable at all, to anyone. You cannot prove something is or isn't in another persons head...

Nothing to do with anything in this thread. Try and stick to the topic instead of cut and pasting talking points.

Just the opposite really. facts mean a lot to me, hence the birth certificate is valid IMO. When you can prove a feeling, and feelings don't change on a whim...then maybe they deserve the same level of consideration. Until then, I'll stick with facts...like Boys have a Penis...girls don't. That Doctors know the difference when they see it, and when they sign off on it we know it's accurate.etc etc.

It's all it is.

Gender is decided before you are born, it's not up to interperetation, despite what some people accept and write.

Yes, I have...repeatedly. A birth certificate is hard fact certifying a boy is a boy for example. That means physically it was checked and found to be a boy in all physical aspects. So if this boy later says he's a girl....we know it wasn't the body..so what was it?

Feelings. That's all it is. If you think it's more, prove it. Documented science already stamped, classified and accepted "male" in that situation.

Already done.

You might be better off taking the Kranes route...and just admit you don't care about facts. Your a feelings guy, and that's all that matters. It would save us both a lot of typing.

 

So the level of intellect on your side just took another step down .. never heard of a comparison I take it.

Your assertion it is nothing more than a feeling, up to your to prove that point.

How does it physically manifest itself . .try reading the OP and researching the thousands of other cases where people are trapped in the wrong body . .that physical enough for you .. ah,but no it won't be because in your world those people are just "feeling" it.

and as to backing it up I already did, but here have a little more it might add to your education;

http://www.shb-info.org/sexbrain.html

Extract - During the intrauterine period the fetal brain develops in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) is programmed into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in transsexualism. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain.

or here - http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Se...ty,_Transsexualism_and_Sexual_Orientation.pdf

or here - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17074984

Extract - Testosterone plays an important role in mammalian brain development. In neural regions with appropriate receptors testosterone, or its metabolites, influences patterns of cell death and survival, neural connectivity and neurochemical characterization. Consequently, testosterone exposure during critical periods of early development produces permanent behavioural changes. In humans, affected behaviours include childhood play behaviour, sexual orientation, core gender identity and other characteristics that show sex differences

but you can prove that gender is not purely based on the physical attributes or lack of, so your assertion of it being in another persons head is inane.

again I wonder if you know what a comparison is .. on evidence so far you don't.

and that is all it is an opinion. If facts mean so much to you why do your willfully ignore the research into how hormone issues effect the brain and it's gender association with either male of female. you seem to be stuck on this mantra of gender being purely decided on what is between your legs.

and yet again with the "feeling" fallacy despite the research showing the contrary.

The facts that you choice to belief in, even though it is an established fact that the brain has as much to do with gender orientation as the penis or vagina.

A doctor cannot see the effect hormone issues during gestation have on the gender orientation, they base their determination on what they can see and they do get it wrong.

Willful denial of the research that shows differently just makes you myopic.

Physical gender is, mental gender is not.

Yes of course a piece of paper defines what you are

don't act so stupid, you know very well what it is . gender determination is a two fold process (on very basic terms) - 1. The physical. 2. The mental, both are determined during the gestation process. The Physical is determined at conception, the mental not until much later in the gestation process.

already have, you just choose to ignore the science.

not in any way, shape or form have you done so.

you might be better off researching hormonal influences on brain gender development before posting about something you know so very little about.

 

Bunch of nonsense. We can give someone hormone therapy to identify with the gender they are not.....but we cannot bring them back to alignment with what they are? That seems to be the failing of your nonsense science.

It's a conscious decision to humor these people in their fantasies, and it's unacceptable to normal people. We know what Boys and Girls are, and it's not up to choice despite what looney, enabler based research you post.

Want to see how reliable your "experts" are? Heres a few examples of your "treatment"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/04/true-life-questioning-gender-again-video_n_3012842.html

Just a few.


Take all your garbage responses and links above and then look at these people who have been victims of this enabler mentality. Telling them they were the wrong gender, reinforcing their choice to change (Which is impossible, and makes that a lie on it's face), and then ask yourself why cases like this happen?

Gender is not open to choice. It's hard coded when you are born. All your side is doing is further harming mentally imbalanced people instead of helping them be comfortable with what they actually are.

Transgender is the epitome of nonsense science, and IMO borders on the criminal for the harm it does to these people.

 

Bunch of nonsense is that you have no idea what you are talking about .. oh and please do declare your scientific qualifications to state as a fact that it is a "bunch of nonsense"

It is also a conscious decision to ignore the accepted scientific facts just as you have done, that is unacceptable to normal people. You think you know what boys and girls are based purely on your myopic opinion, anything other than that makes your position look inane, and despite the fact that I gave peer reviewed evidence you still live in denial (it is noted you have not give a single piece of peer reviewed material in support of your erroneous opinion)

Well golly gosh a few people made mistakes and you think this applies to them all and of course there is nothing at all mentioned about the social pressures involved for these people from people like you telling them they are living a "fantasy" and should be "normal"

Right, peer reviewed research is "garbage" and of course your unsubstantiated opinion isn't

Absolute BS, Physical gender is certainly "hard coded" from conception, mental gender is not. Your wilful denial of the scientific evidence says more about your own mindset than anything else, you have to state that it is purely a "feeling" or it shoots your ideology full of holes, of course ignoring anything that doesn't agree with your fallacy is part of the brainwashing you do to yourself.

Wilful denial and ignorance is the epitome of closed minded people, and IMO borders on abstract stupidity.

what it boils down to is that you have nothing but your ill informed opinion and wilful denial of anything that doesn't adhere to your defunct ideology. .. the epitome of a bigot.

Nothing more to say to a person who is so blinded they cannot see beyond their own ego.

 

Every person who was falsely told they were changing genders....is nonsense. They cannot. Anyone who went through this "change" and then wants to change back...are demonstrating that it is nonsense.

Transgender as a whole....is nonsense. If there is a mental imbalance, treat it like you would any other mental imbalance. Dont encourage it with false claims about being able to switch gender.

Complete, dishonest nonsense.

Yes, I have. Ive given you societies in-use standard...the Birth Certificate. This document is used, and certified by science as an accurate testament as to what a person is. Your "Mental Gender" as a seperate but equal.....is speculation at best.

Even YOU have one. break it out and take a look at it sometime. Let me know which box you used for your "Mental Gender" lol....

If they are a demonstrable Male...and say they are Female....yes, they are living a delusional fantasy, and should be steered back to normal. Just like they do with other mental disorders.

I don't need anyone to substantiate that we cannot read minds, I know it. You cannot prove what thoughts exist or do not inside my head. As such any of this "peer reviewed rsearch" is speculating.

"Mental gender" hahaha...sounds like a feeling. How do you PROVE a mental gender? Let me guess, they "tell" Doctors they feel that way, and since you cannot PROVE they dont...they go with it?

I know noone has ever truly changed their genders. Your entire premise, and all supporting nonsense is a falsehood, and shows the stupidity and gullibility of the people who argue for it.

Gender is what it is, and it is a scientific impossibility to change it. If some people are not comfortable with what they are, then they should me made to be comfortable with it rather than promising the impossible. You can't change genders. It's simply not possible with todays science. To pretend this is happening, or that it is an option at all....is an outright lie.

 

What "mental imbalance", there is none .. you didn't even read the links provided did you, scared they might challenge your assumptions.

Here is just one of the peer reviewed research items offered - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17074984

Extract - "Testosterone plays an important role in mammalian brain development. In neural regions with appropriate receptors testosterone, or its metabolites, influences patterns of cell death and survival, neural connectivity and neurochemical characterization. Consequently, testosterone exposure during critical periods of early development produces permanent behavioural changes. In humans, affected behaviours include childhood play behaviour, sexual orientation, core gender identity and other characteristics that show sex differences

Author - Professor Melissa Hines - http://www.psychol.cam.ac.uk/directory/mh504@cam.ac.uk

Testosterone effects the developing nerve cells during the intrauterine period, gender identity is programmed into our brains while still in the womb, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently .. this is scientific fact, studies, recorded and seen to be the same in numerous studies conducted prove this .. and yet your ignore them. What a person "feels" has little to nothing to do with the already pre-programmed gender identity in our brains.

So what, it means absolutely nothing in the realms of science .. it is nothing more than a piece of paper that you don't even know the purpose of .. here educate yourself;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_certificate

Actually learn what a BC is and what it is for, you will find it has nothing to do with establishing gender.

It would seem that unlike you I don't need a piece of paper filled out by someone else to tell me what I am.

Denial of the evidence is just wilful ignorance.

Who said anything about reading minds, the evidence is there that hormone influences on the developing brain DO establish the gender identity of a person, deny it all you wish, it has been proven. Your "feelings" and "all in the mind" is complete BS.

apart from the fact, that you ignore, that the science is already proven that hormone influences on the developing brain DO establish gender identity (mental gender) within a person, and as that process takes place AFTER the physical gender has been established the two can (and often are) incompatible.

My premise is based on the solid ground of scientific research, yours however is based purely in your own mind, and if you are going to allude to me being a liar you had better be able to prove it, so far there is nothing in your responses other than ill-informed, uneducated BS.

That is only true for those who have no understanding of how gender is established, you seem to think it's all about what is between your legs .. how naive.

Questions : What gender do they put on a BC when the child is born as a hermaphrodite?
Why is gender alignment not done on a hermaphrodite until they are at the age that mental gender becomes apparent?

after all if it's based purely on the physical gender and no person can change gender as you assert then a hermaphrodite MUST be both male and female and can NEVER change that .. and that is plainly absurd.

Furthermore which little box to the doctors tick when a child is born with external genitals that cannot be easily classified as male or female?

 

Heres a link for you which illustrates all the points I've been making. Sorry in advance, as you wont like it...but these are the experts you've been looking for.

Oh...thats got to hurt.
As I stated numerous times...you cannot prove a feeling. Dr Berger says the same thing in different words, he describes it as an emotional appeal, rather than scientific fact.

Not a scientific fact. Likely because, as I have stated, you cannot prove or disprove something exists or does not inside a persons head. You have to rely on what they tell you, or how they "feel".
He goes on

Calling BS on pretty much everything you've presented.

Feelings....who would have thunk it...oh thats right, myself...and of course Dr Berger, and others like him.

Here he is backing my claims of impossibility to change gender at all.

Quite illustrates the falsehood of the "transgender" issue, and the supposed "treatments". Bunch of falsehoods.

Here is a little more for you.

No better adjusted after treatment, no better satisfied...and certainly didnt "change gender". Big waste of time, and putting people at risk.

Seems familiar...wonder where Ive heard the same before. Oh thats right, I've been typing it for years myself while the rest of you tried to place feelings on par with facts.

Little more about Dr Berger before you try and dismiss him and keep following fantasy.

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/ps...fically-there-is-no-such-thing-as-transgender

Basically Dr Berger says you're full of crap, and he has the credentials to know. "Scientifically, there is no such thing as Transgender". In other words, and as I have stated, it all comes down to playing laong with someone elses feelings.
No thanks, I draw the line on other peoples feelings when they effect me or my family negatively. I refuse to go along with fantasy that may put boys in my daughters locker room. You dont get to use feelings to dictate your gender.

Complete Nonsense.

 

If you choice to ignore what I say, then please do so. If you noticed, I said facts mean nothing, it's our perception of them that matters. But if you wish to stop talking back, it's your choice.

 

Unless you're going by personal experience then you don't "know" any of this, you're just saying it.

If something exists only in the mind then it's not factually true, plus even transgender advocates themselves say that the condition is due to a female/male brain structure in the wrong body - so you're contradicting what others are saying by claiming "it's purely in the mind".

Truth of the matter is if it's a biological condition, then biological evidence required would be the safer option. If it's a deal of some kid's verbal testimony up against actual biology (genitals, chromosomes), then biology wins.

And no, children aren't capable of understanding their emotions or knowing what their feelings mean at that age. Some 12-13 year old girls have a crush on older men and that's not abnormal - if you were applying your logic equally you'd have to say we should do away with age of consent laws - because if a 12 year old girl "think she's in love" with a 30 year old man, then it's true "just because she feels it".

- - - Updated - - -

That's just not true, sorry. That's the difference between 'facts' and 'opinions' - opinions are perception, facts (such as that a person with XY chromosomes is a male) don't change with perceptions. The perceptions are either right or wrong.

 

It's not impossible for a elementary school aged child to feel these things. In second grade because I had a crush on my male teacher. Of course at that age I didn't know what being "gay" was or meant, but undoubtedly I had a crush on that male teacher.

I can definitely see that a boy or girl of that same age feeling like they are the opposite gender, and the parents may have experience with transgender people/issues so they know exactly what is going on with their child.

 

America...

What happened! ?

 

liberals invaded academia and public schools

 

Nothing....America is simply accepting a reality that has always existed.

"Ambiguous genitalia (also known as atypical genitalia) is a birth defect (or birth variation) of the sex organs that makes it unclear whether an affected newborn is a girl or boy. This condition occurs approximately once in every 4,500 births. The baby seems to have a mixture of both female and male parts - for example, they may have both a vulva and testicles. Associated intersex conditions for male babies include hypospadias, where the urethral opening is located in an unusual position such as the underside of the penis.

The causes of ambiguous genitalia include genetic variations, hormonal imbalances and malformations of the fetal tissues that are supposed to evolve into genitals. Tests (including ultrasound, x-rays and blood tests) are needed before the baby's sex can be identified. Mild forms of ambiguous genitalia may be characterised by a large (penis-like) clitoris in baby girls or undescended testicles in boys. "
http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Birth_defects_ambiguous_genitalia

 

If all the "transgender" people fit the above...we probably wouldnt even be discussing the issue. Seems if you have a mish mash of both genitalia...you have to choose a side. it's not possible to be both. In those kinds of instances, I dont think you'd see anyone complaining about it.


That however is not what is going on with the OP, and the majority of "Transgenders" who have perfectly identifiable and normal Genitalia.....but decide against all known facts, that it is somehow wrong.

 

Why is it any of your business....are your kids in that school, and afraid to go to the bathroom now?

Perhaps you envision her sneaking in to see a little boys penis for thrills?
Are you transferring your dislike of sexual differences onto people you do not know, and never will?
Are you afraid of catching "the Gay"?

 

It is as much his business as it is yours, unless one is arrogant.

 

Agreed....it is really none of my business, so I stay out of it, but not out of the conversation.