"pro lifers want to punish women for sex"= an off topic arguement

Even though some pro lifers out there probably do want to punish women for having sex, the fact is, that arguement is totally irrelevant to the main debate. Even if that arguement (pro lifers want to punish women) never existed, there still would be a debate over whether or not the fetus is a person deserving of the same rights as born humans.

The entire abortion debate revolves around whether or not the fetus is a person, which I'm willing to debate. But the "pro lifers want to punish women" arguement is irrelevant to the main moral debate of abortion. It avoids the main debate of "whether or not a fetus is a person".

It's an extremley annoying arguement.

 

Well it's always annoying when people who disagree with you make valid points. Making the entire abortion debate revolve around whether the zef is "a person" or not, is merely reducing the argument to WHAT the zef is, when the main argument is WHERE it is. See, all these arguments that "life begins at conception" and whatever are irrelevant, because the question is whether a woman should be FORCED to continue an unwanted pregnancy. Arguments that women SHOULD be forced all involve minimizing women and maximizing zefs.

 

Sure, there probably are some pro lifers who are motivated mainly by having a desire to punish women for having sex.

But that doesn't change the fact that other pro lifers aren't like that, and the actions of some pro lifers don't mean that all pro lifers are like them. Not all pro lifers are motivated by a desire to punish women, some are.

 

What he/she is is far more important than where. This is why a woman cannot abort him/her after a certain age in the womb. If Where was the overriding factor abortions at any stage would be permitted. It is also why the FEDERAL Unborn Victims of Violence Act recognizes rights of the unborn.

The failure to recognize that there are two human being's lives involved in every abortion situation is the largest of the failings in their position.

 

"forcing to continue an unwanted pregnancy", and "is the zef a human" are very connected to each other.

Ending an unwanted pregnancy takes the life of a zef away. The central question to the main debate is-is that zef a person? if it is, then a woman ending an unwanted pregnancy is taking away the life of an innocent person.

I don't believe women should be punished for sex, however, as a pro lifer, I don't think women should take away the lives of their children, just because they don't like the side effects of sex ( a possible pregancy).

 

I think that argument is so stupid. I'm pro-life, and I believe that the "pro-choice" women should take responsibility for their OWN actions! It's their decision to have unprotected sex! Plus, "pro choice" women may believe it's their choice whether to have a kid or not, however, NOT once the child is already alive. This constitutes as a murder, and it's sickening and gruesome! I think women who would mercilessly kill a Human Being (Even if they call it a fetus or zygote,) see their children as a burden, or a parasitic creature that is feeding off of the mother. I think women like this have very serious problems, and have no respect for human life!

 

I actually don't beleive that is the motivation for ANY pro-lifers. I think it is just a red herring. Leftists always have one handy to derail a debate when they are losing, which always happens.

 

EXACTLY. I totally agree with you, Whaler17.

Also, whaler17, please refute the pro choice arguement that "pro lifers want to punish women for having sex".

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A pro choicer might tell you (such as Okgrainne) that you want to punish women for sex.

"well she shouldn't have spread her legs out if she didn't want an unwanted pregnancy"!, is what pro lifers say, they want to punish women for sex!

How would you refute that arguement?

 

Some pro lifers want to punish women for sex. A lot of other ones don't. I don't wish an unwanted pregnancy on women who have sex, nor do I think they deserved it, even if what they do violates my religious beliefs, that's between them and God, I don't wish an unwanted pregnancy on them.

I just don't want women taking away human life, their own children, just because it's an inconvenience. It's not the same thing as punishing them for sex. Stop derailing this debate by comparing the opinions of some pro lifers with the bad opinions of others. Stop being in denial. Pro choicers have already lost the arguement, and they're in denial, and they derail arguements.

 

Well for starters I would point out that a large number of pro-lifers are women themselves. Secondly, I would point out that many of the children killed in utero are female. Surely if pro lifers were anti-woman they would oppose only abortions of males, that is only logical.

I again state that it is a pure red herring and not even pro abortion people beleive it is true. It is a tool to try to derail the debate when they are losing.

 

Yeah. I came to a good conclusion that women take away the lives of their children, just because they're not responsible to deal with the natural results of sex (a pregnancy), and instead of even making a good arguement why a zef isn't a human, I'm accused of wanting to punish women for sex.

Sure, some pro lifers believe in that. But the key word is "some" not all. Our pro life opinions have nothing to do with punishing women, and the actions of other pro lifers don't change or have anything to do with our opinions. Only if you want to derail an arguement that you lost, would you say that.

 

The FACT is that for some women having a baby is a punishment.

NO MATTER what the Anti-Choicers reasons are, it is STILL a punishment for some women.



A person could beat their children while telling them how much they love them but it doesn't make much difference to the kid who's getting beaten.




YOU will never be poor , desperate and pregnant so up there on your high horse it's pretty easy to spout about what OTHER people should do....your opinion , however, is irrelevent....

 

you should be ashamed of yourself telling people that killing their child in utero is a valid option when they are in a financial tight spot. Disgusting!

You don't know where any one of has been or is going, so YOU get off your high horse!

 

This IS punishment mode thinking...that a woman is not responsible, so if you force her to gestate, i.e. be responsible, she will somehow become responsible.

You don't even recognize in your own posts the implication that pregnancy=punishment.

 

I would refute that argument by saying that there are other ways for women to protect themselves from pregnancy; the choice to be sexually active is a choice of their own, and getting pregnant is a result and a direct consequence of that. (Not a punishment but a natural occurrence.) Women that don't want to get pregnant should take steps to AVOID pregnancy, not wait until the child is living and kill it! That is punishing the child for your own mistake!

 

The point is, pro-choicers are demanding that women should have choice, but the fact is women do have choice. You can't get pregnant if you don't have sex. Even with vaginal intercourse, the chances of pregnancy are very low, if only the proper contraceptives were responsibly used.

 

Hey Sam....do you support the WOMANS RIGHT TO ABORT IN THE NINTH MONTH? Let me rephrase it....Do you believe a woman has the right to her body, she owns it and the decision should be HERS ALONE?

Yes or not

We will see if your position is hypocritical or not.

Yes or no

One enslaves the woman...the others gives her choice.

 

But if the woman owns her body..and the choice of abortion so say the pro-choicers is hers...than the risk and the result of her sexual encounter is hers alone. They want to blame others for her pregnancy.
I say the mistake is hers....pro-aborts say...the father is not an issue, so I would ask how could he be blamed?

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WEll if she has multiple abortions and can't afford it...it will become a problem.

The punishment mode thinking is killing the living child in the womb.

 

WhatNow!? said,

And killing them is a joy right?

YOUR ANTI-CHOICE ARENT YOU? Yes or no...do you support late term abortion or do you want to allow the woman the right to her body?

But as a free thinking pro-abort...its the parents right to beat their kid no matter what happens....right? And if the child in the womb could talk...would it matter to them..what actions will be carried out on them? How many would just say....hey I don't want to live anyway...do what you have to do...even though I am alive.

So again you presume to know.
You say someone else's opinion does not matter and your on here posting 24/7 continuously on just about every thread on there. How do you do it? LOL

Why are you giving us your opinion? You know what they say about opinions don't you?

 

Try to separate the salt from the sea.

The "pregnancy as punishment" argument started on the pro-life side.

I agree it is not valid but in evaluating arguments it is always wise to understand the motivation of those involved.

From the beginning the RELIGIOUS RIGHT has framed their arguments around their RELIGIOUS views of pregnancy, childbirth, birth control, and sex.

That they are trying to subtract their religion and keep their argument intact to make it sound "scientific" merely renders their argument ineffective.

"Life begins at conception."

Well, what was alive, the several cells that formed immediately after conception, is dead within a few weeks. Absorbed for nutrients or discarded as trash. It becomes just as valid to claim life begins at intercourse, or upon ovulation, none of these arguments pass the test because they all lack the the one thing science has agreed is "the beginning." A viable human fetus.

But, let us take the argument your way for a moment.

For a moment we shall accept that from the moment of conception a human life exists.

It is demonstrable that women smoking during pregnancy damages the fetus. Should smoking during pregnancy be crime similar to battery?
How about drinking?
How about not eating properly?
Too much stress?
Not enough sleep?
Missing a doctor's appointment?

How far are you willing to go to criminalize behaviors in order to protect a fetus?

A fetus is not a person anymore than an egg is a chicken.

 

Go to the thread I started on...Life Starts at Conception...and read the evidence there. Would like to hear what you have to say. BEcause what you presented here....is crap. You are wrong. A human life starts at conception. And you need not bring religion into this. Do you know who brings religion into it? THE PRO-ABORTS. THEY IGNORE WHAT SCIENCE SAYS. If they admitted it...they would look bad.

 

""""How far are you willing to go to criminalize behaviors in order to protect a fetus?""""



None of the Anti-Choice/Anti-Women crowd will answer....because they will not admit that making abortioon illegal will punish women.
They will not admit that the only way to prevent abortion is to put ALL women in breeding barns just like animals....their goal is to PUNISH women for having sex, CONTROL women like animals......
More proof is the fact that Republicans and their rightwingers constituents are tring to cut funding to any government programs that aid poor CHILDREN like WIC, Welfare, Headstart.

Righties constantly denigrate poor women who DO have children forgetting that these women are what the Anti-ChiceRighties call "precious lives! Precious gifts from god!"...and women who DIDN'T have an abortion.


It is a very evil sickness that gives some people the driving need to control women....

I wonder what they are so afraid of..????

I know they're afraid because scared people lash out at anyone they can without thought or reason.....

 

An egg is not a chicken because it wasn't fertilized, just like human eggs or sperm. If the chicken egg was fertilized, then there would be a living chicken inside of an egg, just like a fetus.

No, I wouldn't make it a crime if a woman didn't eat properly or didn't sleep enough or missed a doctor's appointment.

I'll create a thread to discuss the other two things.

 

If abortion was made illegal than ANYTHING that endangers the fetus would be a crime, too!

So, YOU propose that women be kept locked up so that they commit no "crimes".


Did you think pregnancy was all easy peasy????? Guess 'cause you'll never be pregnant you didn't bother to find out everything that's really involved, including, smoking, proper nutrition, rest (which working women seem to find in short supply so maybe no women should have to work but be supported soley by the government), Hemmoroids, high blood pressure and many other health related issues, and did I mention pain, discomfort, and big medical bills , cut wages and possible job loss....gee, doesn't that sound all warm amd fuzzy and YOU want to force women to go through that...it sounds like PUNISHMENT to me!

 

No, this is not true. It would be similar to any other murder. The woman could be arrested for reckless child endangerment though.

Yes, in some cases. But generally no. If a woman has a prior history of killing her fetii, then I believe preemptive action by the state is justified.