"pro lifers want to punish women for sex"= an off topic arguement

NO, ALL women would have to be kept locked up or have GOVERNMENT regulated centers(paid for by taxpayers) to monitor ALL women to see if they've become pregnant or not....how else would the drooler get revenge on women who had enjoyable sex.


Don't worry, I'm sure they'd give YOU special permission to engage in your dream of shoving sandpaper up those EVIL women's vagina....which , of course, Anti-Choicers do not believe is punishment.....

 

Eww, who would wanna smoke cigarettes anyway?

I need a pro lifer to respond to your comment about "punishment". It's absurd.

No. If I made abortion illegal, anything that endangered the fetus wouldn't be a crime, actually.

 

Actually A Human Life starts with the formation of a sperm and an egg.

"When life starts" is a purely theological argument. did life start at conception or moments before during intercourse. If there is no intercourse are "test tube babies" not people? Maybe life begins even earlier? maybe not.

The discussion is PURELY theological and while some may use certain aspects of science to bolster their arguments the fact is that it still comes down to what you believe. Your theology.

.

 

An egg is not an chicken until a chicken that can survive escapes the egg. A fetus is a fetus until it can survive birth. Then it is human.

So, you wouldn't make purposefully engaging in stressful activities to the point of miscarriage a crime?

But how is that different than abortion?
You'd make that a crime.
The result is the same.

You see there are people who think that drinking, drinking coffee, soda, and smoking are all "sinful." Their belief, like yours in based on their theology. If we enforce your theology through the power of the state, why not theirs?

Abortion is immoral. That is my belief, my theology.
I will do all I can to minimize the number of abortions through education, birth control, counseling. I will not seek to enforce my theology through the power of the state. Neither should you.

 

Why make abortion illegal then???

 

The whole foundation of the pro-life movement is based in religion, dig deep enough under the facade of the pro-life groups and you will find a religious core. If abortion ever become illegal again, do you really think it would stop there, pro-life groups are already challenging certain types of contraception and sex education in schools.
I will ask you this question, if the majority of pro-lifers do not see what they are doing as a punishment on women for having sex why are they not campaigning for the only things that have been shown to reduce abortions, ie contraception and good sex education, why are contraception and sex education even issues in this debate .. i'll tell you why .. it is because they go against the religious values of the majority or pro-life people.

The whole pro-life stance is about control-control of other people, specifically the female of the species. I find is amazing that these people want to enforce a way of life created 2,000 years ago in another country by people who had no comprehension of the world as it is today, it is a way of life based entirely upon their own opinions-opinions which they wish to force all others to adhere to .. that is one thing that cannot be said about the pro-choice side, if you are pro-life and do not believe in abortion then don't have one, if you want to live your life according to the bible then do so .. but .. don't try to enforce those things upon others who do not follow your particular brand of faith.
It is as I have stated many times before religion is nothing more than a thinly veiled method of control.

I've seen the argument that woman should take responsibility if they wish to have sex and get pregnant, what has been failed to be addressed is that a woman may consent to sex, it doesn't follow she consents to being pregnant .. do you consent to injury every time you get in your car, because there is a risk every time you do, should you then be refused treatment because after all you knew the risk, shouldn't you take responsibility for your actions and accept that injury could be a result of you getting into the car and therefore expect no medical treatment. You take all the precautions when you get into your car, but accidents still happen.

The language of most pro-lifers does give the impression that a woman who wishes to engage in sex without a pregnancy should be punished.

 

Fugazi said,

There is some truth to that..however not totally. Of course people of God would know that abortion is immoral. And people of God stand up against the immoral. Might explain why there seems to be more people of faith fighting for the unborn and against abortion than people who reject God. So there is truth to what you say. BUT....today science is clearer than ever on this issue, particularly about when life starts. And this is why people who hold the pro-abort position want to throw the religious aspect out there...because they want to avoid what science says. I have provided a lengthy list of expert testimony from people who are not religious...that affirm that life starts at conception. They teach it in medical school.....life starts when the egg meets the sperm...they unite and something happens. What happens?
A new life begins. It is human and it is living however small.

Whatever protects a life already started. Condoms do not kill. The abortion pill does. Are you saying that we have no right to free speech on what WE BELIEVE. Are you saying we do not have the right to want to teach the principles we find important ...in schools? AND YOU DO? YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO SPREAD HUMANISM...SECULARISM.....HEATHENISM....in any way you want to? Whose rights are you taking away?

Abstinence would reduce the number of people who would contact AIDS/HIV and STD's, unwed pregnancy, it would lower single mother households. There would be less poverty, fewer latch key children. Would that be a bad thing? Sterilization would do the same think. All this would be better than to kill a life already started.
But we all know that in our immoral society abstinence is the last thing people think about. They try to think of ways to get laid...at all cost. BEcause sex and having it today...is the most important thing. Forget about consequences of actions...not important to this set. Abortion will solve the problem.
The fact is... today kids are more educated about sex than their parents. Birth control is easy to get and our laws make it easy. Don't need mom and dads permission...for birth control...or abortion. You need their permission for a tatoo. LOL you can kill if your a kid but ya can't get a tatoo.
They teach sex in schools at early ages. Kids talk about sex, they practice it. They see it on television and can view it on computers. Go into a mall and walk by a Victoria Secret store. Naked women in thongs. All related to our lenient, socially sexual society. Kids know how to get laid and what can happen if they do. So don't feed us the crap that kids are not educated because they are.

But you want to control women too don't you? You want to deny them late term abortions. You want to tell them based on your own morality, that they can't do what THEY WANT WITH THEIR OWN BODIES. You are doing this. You are controlling them...denying them their rights. THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE DOING. THE SAME THING YOU SAY THAT THOSE WHO ARE AGAINST ABORTION...ARE DOING. You are anti-woman and anti-choice.

Do you want to deny a woman the right to her body, yes or no?

You tell us to do something that YOU DO NOT EVEN DO. LOL

You control and you don't even have religion. LMAO But your so rabidly hating on those that do...that you don't look in the mirror at yourself. You should be out fighting, arguing with people who want to deny women the rights to their bodies. But you don't, why?

What do you have against taking responsibility for actions?

Let me have a teaching moment here with you...cause your not getting it.

A woman and man agree to have sex. Before the sex act takes place... pregnancy I am sure crosses her mind. What if? I need protection. She takes the risk..because the woman is the one who gets pregnant it is the way our bodies are whether you think God created us this way, or thru nature...it is what it is.

His penis enters her...and if it ejaculates the sperm enters her. This sperm....might meet up with one of her eggs...and pregnancy may or may not happen. SHE TOOK THE RISK...IT WAS HER BODY.

You don't consent to injury in your car....BUT YOU NEVERTHELESS TAKE THE RISK. WHETHER ITS YOUR FAULT OR ANOTHER PERSONS....YOU TAKE THE RISK. Now if you hit someone and cause them damage....who should be held responsible? The person who gets hit or the person who hit? If a woman gets pregnant who should take responsibility? Who took the risk?

This is not about punishment its about doing what is right. Is killing every right? You tell me. Is killing something that can't consent...moral? For pro-aborts...its moral if its little in the womb...but when it starts to look like a baby then its wrong. The pro-aborts position is all about punishment. They want to punish the unborn for the sins, the ooops moment of its mother. You punish the unborn. Someone has to pay for the mistake...and its the new life.

 

I support more contraception, because it'll decrease the amount of abortions that happened.

A lot of the abortions that happen, happen mainly from women who are younger. The morning after pill was just legalized for all ages, therefore, the amount of abortions amongst young women will decrease.

 

Yes I have seen your post, and tell me where has one pro-choice person ever said a new life doesn't start at conception .. you can't because it hasn't happened.
You are judging others on your morals, why are your morals any better than another persons .. because a book tells you so, god certainly doesn't .. when was the last time god spoke to anyone let alone you.
You cannot deny that the pro-life stance is firmly routed in religious dogma to do so would be a lie, what the pro-life stance fails to establish is when that life becomes an independent sentient person.

See this is the very thing that is typically pro-life, trying to twist other peoples words to suit .. I have never, nor will I ever, say you cannot have free speech.
There is no such thing as an "abortion" pill, yet another myth put together by pro-life sensationalism.

"Are you saying we do not have the right to want to teach the principles we find important ...in schools?" ergo are you saying that we do not have the right to teach the principles we find important .. in schools?
Your principles are not the defining laws for everyone, perhaps the time has come for those who wish to teach religious values have their own schools and leave the rest of us to teach our children as per our principles.

You really think so, you are wrong .. abstinence only sex education has failed and will continue to fail until it is combined with other forms of sex education, including the relationship side of it .. The problem is that pro-lifers fight so hard against a full sex education in schools that most kids get half-baked ideas.
I disagree with your opinion that single mothers, poverty and latch key children would decrease, what would increase is the number of women forced into marriages or having there children taken into care, perhaps even the return of the Madeline workhouses for "wayward" girls .. where girls who were raped were sent so no shame would come upon the family.
I really do not understand how someone cannot see how all these things pro-lifers want would demean women, reducing them to nothing more than chattel of their families and husbands.

A woman is not naked if she is wearing a thong, these prudish overtures are ancient, why should any person be ashamed of their body .. it is god given after all and even Adam & Eve were naked, so why all the problems with the human body.

Irrelevant to my comment .. I just personally believe that a fetus develops to the point where it should be accorded the rights of a born person, you find that hypocritical and wield like some sword as if it has any meaning .. it doesn't.

Why would I as I believe in "choice", I know that is a foreign thing to most pro-lifers . as I said, you don't want an abortion, fine don't have one. you don't want to use certain contraception, fine don't.

and neither does the woman consent to being pregnant (if that is not what she is trying for), she may consent to sex .. just as you consent to get into a car, if you are in an accident did you somehow consent to the accident just because you consented to get into the car . .same for a woman who consents to sex is she somehow consenting to pregnancy .. no she is not.

It is about doing what the pro-life version of right is.
Is killing something that can't consent moral . .you tell me, we kill thousands of animals everyday, can they consent. Wars kill people everyday, do they consent.
Morals are so totally irrelevant to this debate, morals are not universally the same, you are basing your position on your morals, so tell me why are your morals any better than another persons born into a different culture . .what makes your morals so special, I bet the answer has a religious basis.

 

I have to say that you are one of the few pro-lifers who seem to understand that in order to decrease the number of abortions there has to be an increase in better sex education and better access to contraception. While this may not adhere to your religious views I am glad to see you also understand that your religious views are not shared by all and as such should only be used in respect to your own families life.

 

Why not? Explain......

Who'd want to smoke? Maybe a pregnant woman...so would you have her jailed for assaulting her fetus? Why NOT???



"""""I need a pro lifer to respond to your comment about "punishment". It's absurd."""""


YOU call it absurd but don't know why????????? DUH.

The reasons making abortion illegal will punish women has been explained to over and over again...what don't you get ???

 

Fugazi said,

You are wrong. The reason I started the Life Starts at Conception thread is because many pro-choicers don't think that LIFE STARTS AT CONCEPTION. I am judging others and you I might add on WHAT YOU POST HERE ON THIS FORUM.

And God has spoken to me....you have no right to say that He has not...you are a pagan and only believe in yourself. Morality is subjective for you....there is no right...no wrong. Its whatever you want to make it out to be. That is what is confusing...you want to deny a woman choice....to get a late term abortion. You are anti-woman.

Do you not read? I said THERE WAS SOME TRUTH TO WHAT YOU SAID. Of course religion plays a part. I am a Christian first. BUT...there are people who do have a heart and listen to what medical science says about the life in the womb..that do recognize abortion is murder that it is wrong.

If you are for womans rights...then when it becomes sentiment should not matter. What about HER RIGHTS? This is where you walk in mud.

Yes...there is such a thing as the abortion pill....woman take it to what? Why do they take it you tell me?

What are those principles? What about the principles that we might find important?


Your principles are not the defining laws for everyone, perhaps the time has come for those who wish to teach religious values have their own schools and leave the rest of us to teach our children as per our principles.



You really think so, you are wrong .. abstinence only sex education has failed and will continue to fail until it is combined with other forms of sex education, including the relationship side of it .. The problem is that pro-lifers fight so hard against a full sex education in schools that most kids get half-baked ideas.
I disagree with your opinion that single mothers, poverty and latch key children would decrease, what would increase is the number of women forced into marriages or having there children taken into care, perhaps even the return of the Madeline workhouses for "wayward" girls .. where girls who were raped were sent so no shame would come upon the family.
I really do not understand how someone cannot see how all these things pro-lifers want would demean women, reducing them to nothing more than chattel of their families and husbands.

A woman is not naked if she is wearing a thong, these prudish overtures are ancient, why should any person be ashamed of their body .. it is god given after all and even Adam & Eve were naked, so why all the problems with the human body.



Irrelevant to my comment .. I just personally believe that a fetus develops to the point where it should be accorded the rights of a born person, you find that hypocritical and wield like some sword as if it has any meaning .. it doesn't.



Why would I as I believe in "choice", I know that is a foreign thing to most pro-lifers . as I said, you don't want an abortion, fine don't have one. you don't want to use certain contraception, fine don't.



and neither does the woman consent to being pregnant (if that is not what she is trying for), she may consent to sex .. just as you consent to get into a car, if you are in an accident did you somehow consent to the accident just because you consented to get into the car . .same for a woman who consents to sex is she somehow consenting to pregnancy .. no she is not.



It is about doing what the pro-life version of right is.
Is killing something that can't consent moral . .you tell me, we kill thousands of animals everyday, can they consent. Wars kill people everyday, do they consent.
Morals are so totally irrelevant to this debate, morals are not universally the same, you are basing your position on your morals, so tell me why are your morals any better than another persons born into a different culture . .what makes your morals so special, I bet the answer has a religious basis.[/QUOTE]

 

[/QUOTE]


Finally you're coming around.....

May I quote you with the above.... You had Fugazi in a bubble quote but then the rest is yours, correct?

 

That is mostly nonsense. Sex education is out there in mass. It hasn't reduced the abortion rate enough. Contraception is out there available free at most clinics.

The cold hard truth is that as long as abortion is an easy option, many will not bother with contraception.

 

Most pro lifers do, the whole "well you are against contraception" is another pro abort red herring.

 

assumption without evidence = fail

 

Unfortunately, we still have a remnant from the Bush years when abstinence-only sex ed was the ONLY sex ed supported by federal funding. Abstinence-only sex ed has proved a failure, and yet government keeps pouring money into it, leaving comprehensive sex ed to be funded by local communities.

What, what, what, you mean contraception is free at PLANNED PARENTHOOD CLINICS?? The ones you and your cohorts want to defund? Planned Parenthood clinics are wonderful, but aren't available to everyone.

 

It's pretty pretentious for you to say that, don't you think?

Let's use common sense. Why would a person be fighting to "limit the rights of a group" just for the sake of it?

The term "pro-life" implies that a person views the fetus as a human -- a human whose right to life is greater than the mother's right to slaughter it for convenience.

What about premature babies?

Or what about hospitals that perform live birth abortions? Did you know that there are abortion "doctors" in the US who leave babies born out of failed abortion attempts to die on tables?

Did you know that Senator Obama was only one of two cngressman to support the legalization of this act? Even during the testimony of nurses who were ordered to put diapers on the premature infants and leave them until they cry to death, Sen. Obama sat there like a cold statue.

What sort of man votes in favor of that? And THREE TIMES yet??

And you want to talk about women's rights? Well what about all the women in China who are found pregnant and forced, against their will, to have an abortion? The child can be nine months along, and they don't care. They just yank it out, stab a pair of scissors into its soft skull, pop it open, and suck out the brain with a vacuum.

If being a pro-lifer makes me a wrong, then I don't want to be right.

 

Perhaps a person wants to limit the rights of a group to keep members of that group powerless and subservient?

Then that person has a right to refuse to have an abortion. But his own personal "views" are not sufficient reason to limit others' choices.

What about them?

If you mean "partial birth abortions", a term coined by pro-lifers, they're now illegal and not performed anywhere in this country. While I think these stories of abortion survivors are mostly just stories for propaganda purposes, I am truly sorry if any baby is not given comfort care in those cases.

It has been explained repeatedly that Obama's vote was based on the fact that Illinois already had such a law.

I think conditions have improved somewhat in China in the last several years, but IAC I am not responsible for those conditions. I do oppose women being forced to have abortions, just as I oppose women being forced not to have abortions.

 

It's no less annoying than the go-to line of saying pro-choicers just want to kill babies and have more abortions, guilt-free sex, the whole nine yards of BS, and that's not even getting into the charges of wanting to destroy America as a whole.

 

You just stated the truth. Pro-choicers do want to kill babies. They don't want protection for the life in the womb. They believe people should have as much sex as they can...cause if they didn't they would be a religious whacked out bigot churchgoing pro-lifer. They hate America and hate Christians and don't care about morals....or protecting Americas innocent unborn babies. That is no BS.

 

okgrannie said,

How do your personal views relate to women who want to have a later term abortion grannie? LOL

ARe you for allowing them choice? Or do you want to take their personal rights away? If you say no to late term...YOU ARE LIMITING OTHERS CHOICE.

 

"Religious school grads likelier to have abortions"
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31048153/ns/health-health_care/

 

Off topic and frankly who cares?

When MSNBC is the source, all anyone does is laugh.

 

So sex ed can only happen if there is federal funding? How stupid.

It seems you agree that there is no incentive to take birth control as long as easy abortion is an option.
Good, that is progress.

The thing you pro promiscuity people miss, is that abstinence is a measure to prevent disease as much as it is to preveny pregnancy. Just as condoms are not 100% effective at preventing pregnancy, they are also not 100% effective at stopping STDs.