The Carbon Tax - Debate

In order not to pollute every other thread with the carbon tax, AGW and CO2 issues how about we have it here.

For me the whole issue of AGW – CO2 – Carbon Tax/ETS is one big fabricated lie that is designed to fleece the developed countries of their riches through taxation on energy which then like a domino effect will drive up the price of all goods and services in the countries that do participate.

Why do I think that AGW –CO2 – Carbon Tax/ETS is a SCAM based on a lie?

1. There has never been any empirical evidence going back millions of years ago until the present day that suggests CO2 drives a runaway greenhouse effect.

If this was the case then 550 million years ago when we had concentrations of CO2 in our atmosphere that measured 7000ppm surely we would have initiated a runaway greenhouse effect that today’s scientists would have detected through technology.

2. It has been proven that the mean average temperature of the Earth correlates to the sun’s activities, the sun drives all cooling and warming on planet Earth, it also drives the amount of CO2 we have in our atmosphere including other more prominent green house gases like water vapor.

3. The amount of CO2 we have in our atmosphere is too small to drive major climate change especially when compared to the most prominent green house gas water vapor,

a. Total amount of CO2 in our atmosphere today is 0.00039

b. Total amount of MANMADE CO2 today is 3% of the total in (a) above the rest is from the ecosystems.

c. Of the 110ppm increase in CO2 from 280ppm to 390ppm over the last couple of centuries how much is anthropogenic and how much is from the ecosystems?

The sun has been very active over the last few centuries, meaning warmer climate and hence more natural CO2 going into the atmosphere.

d. It has been estimated that if we double our current concentration of CO2 from 390ppm to 780ppm the average mean global temperature will rise by one degree Celsius, not a case for a runaway greenhouse effect.

4. Water Vapor in our atmosphere causes 95% of the greenhouse effect and warming, it varies in concentration in our atmosphere from 0.004% to 4% at the poles to the equator respectively.

5. Global Circulation Models (GCM’s) are just not sophisticated enough to predict climate change they take known satellite data from spectra irradiance in the troposphere with parametric settings put the earth’s atmosphere in a test tube not taking into account the albedo of the Earth’s surface, cloud formation, water vapor and humidity to mention some.

The IPCC GCM’s base all the warming on CO2 and amplify the effects of CO2 by 40 fold compared to the effects of the sun a clear case of garbage in garbage out.

6. The carbon tax/ETS allows the big polluters to pollute more if they purchase carbon credits to offset their carbon footprint while putting more CO2 and other greenhouse gases into the atmosphere.

Hardly a case of extreme non reversible manmade destruction if they are allowed to do that, don’t you think.

7. The carbon tax/ETS will fleece nations of their wealth through the farming and selling of carbon credits on the stock exchange, its estimated that if all countries jump on board then the Carbon Emissions Trading Scheme will be worth one trillion dollars per annum – you have to ask where is all this money going and who will be collecting it, we know the United Nations will get 10%, bankers and wall street get the rest.

$1,000,000,000,000 x 10% = $100,000,000,000

What would the United Nations want with one hundred billion dollars per year?
Maybe to form a one world government the so called new world order that Bob Brown and Julia Gilard are in favor of and can’t wait to see its formation.

8. Why not spend these billions of dollars here in our own country Australia retrofitting our existing plants with the latest technology in curbing greenhouse gas emissions and also in renewable energy why does so much money have to go to overseas institutions that don’t give a rats about us, the only thing their interested in is $ money.

9. Supposedly 1998 was our warmest year for yonks if you research this you may find otherwise, but non the less scientists are now saying that the sun since 1998 has gone into an inactive period meaning that over the next few decades we are in for global cooling and NOT global warming, there has not been any noticable warming from the year 1998 but time will tell in the future.

 

Another lie our current PM has been pushing on us is that Australia is amongst the highest polluters in the world.

This a blatant lie.

We aren't even amongst the biggest polluters in the world at all, we aren't even in the top ten.

Our monumental liar of a PM uses the per capita statistic (per head) a meanigless statistic that means SFA.

She uses this statistic because of our small population, but if we had a population the size of the biggest polluters in the world eg China and the US we wouldn't even register on the PER CAPITA graph.

Just shows how dishonest politicians can use statistics to make it seem so, the graph below shows total CO2 emissions for countries.

 

Carbon tax hit just a tip of the iceberg

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mo...p-of-the-iceberg/story-fn7x8me2-1226293826137

 

Liberals like to think that Tony Abbott would never bring in a Carbon Tax. He would. He'd call it something else - much like he would with workchoices.

 

If he did he would take it to the poles first just like John Howard did with the GST but it won't come to that because both the carbon tax & work choices are now just to much political poison for the coalition.

 

Abbott isn't going to put a price on ghg emissions, but you WILL be paying to reach the SAME 2020 emissions targets as the Government. The only difference is, the amount you pay will have absolutely no relationship with the amount you emit. You could emit NO ghg emissions at all, turn off your electricity entirely, and you'll still be paying for other people to reduce ghg emissions. Pretty much all economists agree that an ETS is the most cost efficient way to reduce emissions, and pretty much all climate scientists agree that ghg emissions are causing AGW which will have future negative repurcussions on our economy. And yet, bizarrely, an ETS has shifted from being a bipartisan popularly accepted policy in 2007, to something that's going to destroy our economy, a big scam, whatever, in 2012. It's completely ridiculous, it's a construct of the tabloid press and festered in moronic conspiracy forums and blogs on the internet, and why anyone would support Abbott's policy, which also assumes AGW is true and will cost billions but is not supported by economists or even by his entire party, I really have no idea.

 

And here we see somebody attempting to change history, Bipartisan popularity, oh he did forget that is exactly how Abbott got the top liberal job, Didn't he?

 

The Carbon Tax taxes the top 500 companies?

So company 501,502 etc would be able to offer lower / discount prices would it not?

It's already happening in QLD Power.


I find it funny that OP can hate on the Gillard government for instance bagging her about North Shore comment.

We need to be self reliant - This is coming from a man who is going to earn 150k+ a year after he retires? Hey Tony isn't you're relying on hand outs after you retire.

Cut Medicare but keep private health rebates because the people like Joe Hockey need them so they won't come reliant on public care.

A man who understands that every day there are struggling families, while he has a tall Christmas tree there are people with no tree or presents. But he understands. That's why he wants to cut Welfare. He doesn't want you to prosper that's why he wants to cut everything and sell of everything we own. To enrich himself and his mates.

Every human has the right to Liberty. Vote Liberal and you will lose that.

 

Er, in 2007 BOTH PARTIES had an ETS as their climate policy, exactly how is that not bipartisan? Or are you telling me Howard was lying and he would NOT have implemented an ETS?

 

Rudd had one but i dont think he was going to implement it.

Thats why they gor rid of him and put someone there that would.

 

No, I don't think he ever would - he had years in which he COULD have introduced some measures but he Faffed around so much that in the end it became a joke

 

So you are condemning the Howard government for doing exactly what this government has done. Funny. Perhaps it is bipartisan in the fact that both governments have in effect done nothing but blow hot air in regards to an ETS.

 

Um... did you miss that an ETS has already been legislated and is coming into effect in a couple of months?

 

My first thought was "Don't go there" sometimes life is too short

 

Yes I did. However this ETS was talked about by the ALP before K. Rudd took the throne. So the essence of my comment was that you have to be fair and not howl out the Howard government for fluffing around the subject when the current party in power has done exactly the same thing for the last six years.

 

Really? The Liberals blocked Rudds ETS twice in the senate, and I believe it was on the third time through, just when the negotiations looked like they would be successful, half of the Liberals decided that they couldn't bare any kind of bipartisanship and stabbed their leader in the back and negotiations completely fell apart. Then Gillard came in, said the election would be a mandate for carbon pricing, and delivered carbon pricing with the help of independents and greens and it's coming into effect in a month. I'm not howling about Howard, I am assuming that Howard would have delivered on his election promise to implement an ETS with an initial fixed priced period of one year. And I'm also assuming that most people agree that Howard had a good economic track record, and that his legislation wouldn't have ruined the economy.

 

You sir are despicable and no better than our monumental liar of a prime minister Ju-Liar Gillard.

WTF, ziggy stop embarssing yourself FFS.

[video=youtube;ApCwoj35d3M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApCwoj35d3M[/video]

 

You sir are despicable and no better than our monumental liar of a prime minister Ju-Liar Gillard.

WTF.

[video=youtube;ApCwoj35d3M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApCwoj35d3M[/video]

 

ETS isn't a carbon tax, she said the election would be a mandate for a price on carbon, but she ruled out a carbon tax. And no matter how many times you, Tony Abbott and Alan Jones want to call it a tax, it will never actually be a tax. Unless you're telling me that John Howard was LYING in 2007 and he wasn't introducing an ETS with a fixed priced period, he was introducing a carbon tax that would cripple the economy? Can't have it both ways.

 

Gillard never had a mandate for a carbon tax or an ETS thats why she has been branded as the monumental liar she is.

And thats why federal labor will go the way of QLD labor and be reduced to a minority party.

As for the greens i hope they go the way of the democracts.

Mandate my backside which fairy tale are you reading.

If anything this government should have been a caretaker government because they weren't even elected.

And most labor voters voted fro Gillard (including me) cause she said there would be no carbon tax.

Australians are a patient bunch until the next election.

 

Yes, from your point of view, no minority government has a mandate to do anything. This doesn't actually reflect reality and the country can't stand still just because we have a minority government. I have a very hard time believing that you have ever voted for the ALP. Any party that doesn't have a majority is a "minority party", presumably you mean a minor party, and just no, the ALP won't be a minor party, unlike stupid Queensland we actually have a federal Senate.

 

How about when Gillard herself states it is a carbon TAX. yet again you try and slip your lies through and yet again you lose credibility.

 

I think what others have stated is that she is leader of a minority government, that is a lot different to a minority party. I think you may be putting words in peoples mouths. Ziggy it must be very hard to be a successful Labor STOOGE these days, given the state of the party.

 

The liberal party have also lied. There was bipartisan support for an ETS, which they reniged on therefore lied about. Abbott had an evil plan to lead and control, and gained some friction on the greasy pole by simply allowing people to justify their self centred and greedy intentions at any cost. Carbon pricing is the initial stage of kickstarting the process of an ETS. It is not an ongoing bucket of funds that the government can rely on forever but will help the initial phase to counteract greedy mining companies who find it hard to part with what is essentially pocket money to them. Companies themselves will be forced to innovate or pay the price for pollution through trading with each other. No....it's not going to make a significant difference straight away but at least it is starting the ball rolling. Despite the tedious comment above, the anthropogenic argument is based on effects over a short period of time in history, which consequently has increased ever so dramatically since industrialisation...hmmmm. People should be embarrassed to allow Abbott's mantra and rhetoric bedazzle them. Just about everyone who argues the point about Carbon pricing parrotts his comments, without any originality in the argument..."Julia Lied"; "Carbon Tax"; "Bad for the economy"; "Nation Destroying";"won't do nothing for climate change". Abbott was so pissed off that he missed out on becoming ruler by the smallest margin, he'll carry on like a sulking child until he either gains power, gets the boot from his party or the people who will hopefully see through his evil disguise and nation destroying negativity.

 

If imports from Asia do not have the carbon tax & are already cheaper & this causes our remaining manufactures to move there then the pain will result in no global CO2 reductions but only a technicality of an Australian CO2 footprint reduction for Julia to gloat about.