Vaccine controversy

I am hearing that lots of people are refusing the c-virus vaccine. I also hear numerous doctors and so-called "experts" telling us that we still can't live normally, even after we receive the vaccine. So, how is this helping, to say we'll still have to wear masks, social distance, stay locked down, etc, etc.? Example: I'm not an "anti-vaxxer (that most despised of all creatures), but I try to be moderate and weigh the risk before jumping in on vaccines. I am most likely at low risk for this virus, but I thought that if lots of folks refuse it, the government and medical establishment (which has become almost the same thing!) will use that as an excuse not to let us go back to normal, so I will take the vaccine. But, if it won't lead rapidly to normalcy, why should I?

 

No it will take time because your country totally sodded up and have too many active infections. In six months WHEN you have enough people vaccinated you can leave off the masks

 

Why do you think that any government would want to stop you going back to normal? What possible motive can possibly outweigh the horrendous damage this disease is doing to economies around the world?
The vaccines take time to become effective, this is why you have to continue taking measures to mitigate the spread of the disease even after you've had your jab. There is also evidence that some vaccines are less effective against the new variants of the virus.

 

It would be nice if everyone learned a little about vaccines in general and their limitations instead of assuming they are a cure all.

 

Nope. Early evidence is that the vaccines aren't as effective against the new strains as they are the original and the UK strain is expected to start burning through America by mid to late march. Even since the jabs have been out, they are now encouraging people to wear masks even in their homes and double mask in public. There is not going to be a government sanctioned return to normal for at least 2 years.

 

Eventually you will be able to leave them off. We don’t mask up but then there are almost no cases here

 

“Magic wand” thinking. It is everywhere. “Surely you have a pill for this” “It will disappear
Ike magic” “it will only take a few minutes”

Red flags every single one

 

Eventually in 2 to 3 years as I indicated. After we get through all the nonsense we are going through, they still won't remove the mandates until there are effective prescription antivirals. You live on an out of the way island with about 1/65ths the population of the US. We are not as isolated.

 

Sounds like a real accurate count.

 

I remember someone saying, “ It ( Covid) will be gone by spring..” Which spring do you think he meant ? Definitely not under his watch. Golf schedule didn’t allow it.

 

It is so refreshing to see one asking intelligent questions. Hell, in this time of universal deception and mass hysteria, it's wonderful to see anybody asking questions at all!

Using traditional definitions, this is not a vaccine at all. It is a delivery of mRNA, something that's never been done before. That is part of the reason it is issued FOR EMERGENCY USE ONLY.

Anti-vaxxers are not as despicable as career bureaucrats with vested interests.

 

Regardless of vaccine and whether it works well against all mutations, our hands could still be dirty from handling some snotty nose picker's can of peas..., and with some people not getting vaccinated, at least wash hands lots.

There isn't much of a reason to tell people to not ride a motorcycle in a helmet size bubble in the country air and prefer them to stay in the larger bubble of a castle with the rats and fleas. Governments do stuff like that.

There is no good reason to keep the virus now...unless they want to thin a certain herd a little more. Kamala Harris, is younger and not high risk, and been vaccinated. The waiting for my dose, is killing me.

 

Except for one thing. There are mandatory helmet laws in some states at the backing of insurance companies. Imo, you’ll see law suits for people trying to work or go to schools in some settings while refusing to be vaccinated. These people could easily get sued and possibly suspended .

 

May I ask where you are located?

Speaking of lawsuits, I think in a few years, we will have people whose health has declined because of wearing masks and those will be suing government over the mask mandates.

 

Assuming this is a sincere question, not just rhetorical. Because many governments, moving towards communism (or socialism if you prefer), take population control as a first step.

Anyhow, just saying that they would get more people to get vaccinated if they quit saying it won't change our lives for the better.

 

That’s hilarious. There has already been a “decrease” in other diseases due to mask wearing.
You’re entitle to think what ever you want. But any health repercussions for illnesses not related to Covid will have nothing to do with masks. I believe the healthcare professionals who say cancer deaths, heart disease and other causes will increase significantly due to the care not received by many because of the stress on the healthcare system by Covid. Thousands have had delayed treatments, physicals and diagnosis.

 

It was a sincere question.
Tell me, which part of asking people to wear masks or social distance is a movement towards communism or a control method advantageous to government (other than the obvious pandemic control)?
How can deliberately damaging the economy do anything other than weaken government? Reduced income from taxation, huge expenses in social security, stimulus payments etc.
Why would conservative governments like the UK take these measures unless they were completely unavoidable?

Oh and nobody is saying vaccinations won't change our lives for the better. In fact they are saying the opposite. What they are doing though is explaining that vaccination isn't an instant cure-all. It takes time for the vaccines to work and herd immunity won't be reached until at least 70% of the population has had both jabs. This is why you can't immediately stop wearing a mask and head down to a crowded bar as soon as you've had your first jab.
All this information is out there, I'm surprised you have to have it explained to you.

 

Technically you need to wait for the famous "herd immunity" to begin to go back to normality.
But if you don't vaccinate the population ... you will never get that goal.

This said, to be vaccinated means to be protected from the disease, it doesn't mean not to be contagious for sure. At least not immediately.
Statistically, a residual viral load can exist in the respiratory ways, so that the mask is still necessary.

This is not related with the matter of fact that the vaccines haven't got an immediate effect: even after the second shot you have to wait 7-10 days to be protected for real.

In a few words, we are dealing with a systemic disease [it's well different from a flu] which is only partially affected by the increase of absolute humidity during the warm seasons [this is a pivotal difference from a flu virus]. This means that the vaccine is a main weapon.

There are other weapons which are coming. In US you've got particular drugs in experimental phase, in Italy we've got a common drug which can be effective [it blocks the reproduction of the virus] and we are going to use it at experimental level. But other countries are following this path.

In the meanwhile, waiting for a "magic pill", the vaccine is pivotal to slow down the pandemic.

 

AlpinLuke, always issuing correct and well-reasoned opinions. Quality poster!

 

Bridget, this pandemic affects all countries in the world, including those with very leftist governments, center-left governments, centrist governments, center-right governments, and very rightist governments, and they have all implemented similar measures. Maybe you should stop worrying about the government, and focus on the medical side of it and the impact on your health and the health or your loved ones. That's where I may be able to help you (I'm a physician) so I'll comment on that rather than on the political aspects.

So, let's see.

People are refusing the coronavirus vaccine: indeed. Some 30% to 40%, including healthcare professionals, regretfully, and not necessarily just anti-vaxxers. I think some people still believe that vaccine development was too fast, and some healthcare professionals who are members of the 1a priority group, were a bit afraid of being the very first post-marketing group, before more evidence of safety came in.

Is this wise? I don't think so. Most people don't realize how dangerous this virus is. They only look at the death toll, and it is extremely low for the young and healthy, like 0.02% for certain age groups. However the rate of post-infectious complications is way way way higher than that, including in young and healthy people. 30% of college athletes in Ohio, in a study, were shown to have heart complications of Covid-19 even though they only had mild or asymptomatic cases of the disease. A study in Germany found a whooping 78% of heart complications (this one addressed people of all ages). And the heart is just one organ. There are blood clots and strokes, lung fibrosis with permanent shortness of breath, kidney insufficiency, liver issues, and neuropsychiatric issues (brain fog) as well as chronic fatigue syndrome. That's NOT a virus you want to catch, regardless of your age and your good health. Don't mess with it, Bridget. This is serious stuff and no hoax, no conspiracy. Certainly a lot of people do not have the above complications, but an estimated 1 in 5 to 1 in 10 do. It's like playing with a Russian roulette. Are you sure you want to do it?

By comparison, the vaccine is extremely safe. By now there's been more than 140 million people vaccinated, worldwide. Number of deaths attributed to the vaccines: None. The Moderna one causes a severe allergic reaction in 2 to 3 people out of 1 million. The Pfizer, a bit more, 11 people out of 1 million. But ALL of those did recover with no consequences, after treatments such as an epi pen shot. There's been 35 cases of low platelets, with one person dying. It's not clear yet if these cases and this death were caused by the vaccine, or just coincidental because this does not seem out of the regular stats for this condition in the general population. But still, even if we accept this one death as caused by vaccine, then it's one in 140 million.

Now, let's see, how many people would have died if all these people who got vaccinated (140 million) caught the virus, instead? At least 1% (in some places, more; the United States currently has a 1.9% case-fatality rate). That's 1,400,000 people.

So which one seems riskier to you? A disease that would have killed 1,400,000 people in a population of 140 million people, or a vaccine that would have killed 1 person (if this one case is even confirmed to be due to the vaccine) in that same population?

About new variants: while the vaccines seem to be less active against the South African B.1.351 variant and the Brazilian P.1 variant, NOBODY who got vaccinated with ANY Covid-19 vaccine, so far, has died of Covid-19 including in countries that have a high prevalence of these new variants. So, while the vaccines are not preventing all infections when the new variants are in play, it seems like they are preventing severe disease and death. Maybe the Oxford/AstraZeneca is an exception to this (the jury is still out; it seems less efficacious against the B.1.351 than the other vaccines, but this evidence came out of a very small study). Anyway, the Pfizer, the Moderna, the Janssen, and the Novavax all seem to at least prevent severe disease with hospitalization and death, including for the new variants.

So, new variants or not, do get your vaccine!

Now, why is it that people might still want to wear masks and social distance even after they get vaccinated? For various reasons.

1. The maximum protection for the 2-doses vaccines is achieved 7 to 14 days after the second dose, only. For the Janssen, 4 weeks after the single dose.

2. Even at the maximum protection, no vaccine is 100% effective. The figures have varied from 49% to 95%. Do notice that the two vaccines that achieved the most protection (94.1% for Moderna and 95% for Pfizer) had this efficacy measured BEFORE the new variants came up; likely, if studies got done again, they wouldn't achieve 95%, now. So even with the vaccines, you still have odds of being infected that vary between 1 in 20 and 1 in 2, depending on the vaccine and on the variant.

3. Not only the B.1.351 and the P.1 are more resistant to the vaccines, but even newer variants might surface that the vaccines would have an ever bigger trouble protecting you from. This can happen anytime. In the future we may need booster shots targeting the new variants. (The UK variant a.k.a. Kent variant a.k.a. B.1.1.7 seems to be fully susceptible to the vaccines). Until we get the booster shots, it might be prudent to remain vigilant.

4. It is a lot less clear if vaccines avoid people being able to still pass the virus onto others even if the vaccinated person doesn't get sick. There is only one study on this. It showed reduction of that capacity to pass on the virus, from 67% to 82%. So, 1 in 3 to 1 in 5 vaccinated people would still be able to pass the virus on to others.

5. One shouldn't just think of oneself. If you pass the virus on to others, you are potentially putting loved ones at risk, and you're damaging your local economy, and delaying a full reopening and full economic recovery.

So, these 5 points are good reasons to remain prudent even after you're vaccinated. But yes, you'll be MUCH more protected with the vaccine than without it.

When can all precautions be (safely) completely over? Likely when we achieve 70% of all people fully vaccinated, at least. (even better, 80% but I'm not sure we'll ever get tot that). The virus would then have a lot more trouble progressing, and the number of infected people in the community would dramatically drop, making it safe again to go about your business with no added protection. This, if the new variants don't make it much worse, in which case we'd need booster shots (three vaccine makers are currently already working on booster shots).

The bottom line: the vaccines are a great tool. They are not perfect, they are not 100% but they greatly reduce the odds that you'll get a serious case of Covid-19 that might leave you with long-term consequences even if you are young and healthy and you won't die. Given that they are not 100% and in some cases of the new variants, more like 50%, it's wise to remain prudent even after vaccination.

This will all eventually be over. But unfortunately, it's not over yet. Patience. Things will get better; but do your part: get your vaccine, and remain prudent for a bit longer with masks and social distancing.

I hope the above helps. Cheers.

 

del

 

We in the UK are having just as many people refusing the vaccine as in the US. I may have misheard the actual numbers who have declined but I heard that 3% of whites, 25% of Asians and around 40% of blacks have refused the vaccine when offered. Here is a link to a different but related report:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55666407
Fake news is likely to be causing some people from the UK's South Asian communities to reject the Covid vaccine

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-55937548
"There is a real reluctance for people taking their vaccination and this is not just everyday people, healthcare workers are also refusing."
Mrs Aabe said the myths are being read on the internet and include, things such as the vaccine causes, infertility, death, is not halal and is a "trial on black people".

 

Heck, offer anyone refusing to have the vaccine to explain why a drink of industrial cleaner would be any better. There seems to be a huge lack education which is at the forefront of most poor personal decisions.

 

Just wondering if you have a link to point 4?

 

Not on me right now. It is a recent study from Oxford University. I'll look it up later, no time now. Thanks.