An Arab perspective on the world

It's not that every change in borders is legal.

The law is that if the border does change, then property owners retain rights to their property, and they must be considered full citizens of the country their property is part of.

So, a one-state solution implemented in Israel/Palestine would have West Bank property owners retaining their property rights and becoming full citizens of the new state.

As for right of return, that is somewhat "aspirational", and the amount of right of return Palestinians ever get is certainly not going to be 100%. In fact, today there are Arab citizens of Israel living in Israel who Israel has refused to allow to return to their property in Israel.

 

Thank you for your very interesting perspective!

 

Yeah, people have trouble imagining the Middle Eastern countries as pretty secular and increasingly so. I guess it's as difficult as imagining actual modern, functioning, flourishing cities in Africa instead of broken down villages and hungry people.

And that support has definitely...mostly...been a joke. Infamously, international loans- whether from states or "unbiased international institutions" like the IMF or the World Bank- have many strings attached, basically saying that no aid will be given unless significant liberties of foreign capital and diplomacy be given jurisdiction in the land and large interest rates be agreed upon. It's a heist.

I disagree with the two-state solution because it is largely meaningless. Israel has all the power and control. The Pakistani state would be a crippled, severely handicapped dependent nation and there's absolutely no assurances that international laws will be upheld in their defense as they have already been violated....to this day...repeatedly.

 

What precisely do you mean by "Zionist."
It's my experience people who throw around the term like you do, have issues.
Plus, you haven't answered either of my posts pointing your inaccuracies/fabrications elsewhere.

 

The Zionist narrative is very important to justifying what the European refugees to Palestine have done for 65 years.

 

I think the right of return is the best solution for Palestinians. I'm not sure exactly how authentic Israel's version of Democracy is, but if it is what it says it is, than Palestinian's return to their former lands and becoming citizens with a stable foundation in stable, prosperous communities, has the best chance of reforming Israel from within.


If they leave and try to form their own state, they are prey. Worse, people outside the area will mistakenly believe this to be empowering for Palestinians and it will provide false cover for future abuses.

 

Most of Israel is state property and was State land under the Ottomans: passed to the British and then to Israel.
Most of the Arab owned land was owned by wealthy Non-residents on which most 'palestinian' peasants worked.
I know you can whip out one of those maps from one of those palestinian websites but they are inaccurate.
I'm sure there are Many Palestinians who lost their land though.
Too bad.
Reality check:
Did you know, Despite what the UN says, one CAN lose a war and territory?
Had Arabs won the 1948 affair, what do you think would have happened to Jewish Land owners.
War is not a "Heads I win"... or else.. we-get-to-start-from-same-place-again.
War is for keeps.
"International Law" is just what the UN votes this week, month or year. And in re Israel, that's always quite predictable.

 

What is 65 years?
That's 1951.
If you mean 1948, and you do...
Zionism started WAY before that, as did legitimate Zionist settlement.
Jews were the largest constituents of Jerusalem by 1840.
Pretty well the same time 'Australians' and Americans were moving West.
Of course, unlike the Jews, the Anglos in both those current countries did not have extant populations, continuous presence for 3 Milennia, or a History in the land.
By the late 19th C presence was quite significant, and in the end, Jews only got half of lesser Palestine. In addition to being offered the other half, Arabs got 78% of the British Mandate in Jordan: the other Palestinian state.
and of course, you did NOT answer my query.
What, precisely is a "Zionist"?
So far you've whiffed on all 3.

 

Israel is absolutely hard core against right of return.

As I pointed out, they don't even allow Arab citizens of Israel who are currently living in Israel from returning to their property in Israel.

Yes, many of those who are blocked from returning to their land in Israel are living in relocation camps that have been around for decades now. They were a recruiting target for bin Laden, as they are living without hope as prisoners in squalor.

 

The Bolsheviks began abusing the Palestinians by 1920 and created the Zionist terror gangs.

At the first Zionist conference in Basel, Switzerland they declared they wanted all of Palestine including Jordan, parts of Lebanon and parts of Syria.

 

Yes, I know. It is an extremely long shot. They have about as much chance of regaining their land as Native Americans do getting back any part of the US. Which is why the remaining Native Americans- if they can even be called that anymore- are largely powerless and dependent, but at least they aren't under as cruel an oppression as the Palestinians...anymore.

If the Palestinians are chased away...just like the Native Americans...with bullsh*t promises about their own land and sovereignity, even though they don't have the power or leverage to defend their land or enforce their interests, they will eventually be taken over in the future.

 

No, I "whip out" Israeli maps. Israel is quite proud of its ethnic cleansing progress, and they can better represent their plans for their constant rerouting of the wall to capture more land, new Israeli-only roads, etc.

What is going on today is the theft of property including homes and farms that is owned by individual Palestinians.

That is ethnic cleansing and is a pure humanitarian crime that has been going on for decades now.

And, no, it has absolutely nothing to do with war. War does not confer the right to decades of ethnic cleansing.

 

Did you really just invoke Bolsheviks in your argument? Let me guess, you believe that Jewish Bolshevism stuff?

 

Read something contemporaneous.

Zionist Aspirations in Palestine, July 1920

http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/unbound/bookauth/zionism/mackay.htm

 

True.

I'll have to say that at this point I'm not totally opposed to a single state solution.

But, that solution would have to have full equality for all those in West Bank and Gaza.

The catch is that Israel wants to be a "Jewish" state. They've even tried to change their laws to differentiate between Jews and all those who aren't Jews - making their apartheid even more explicit than it already is.

If there is a one-state solution, there will come a time in the reasonably near future when Israel will not be a "Jewish" state.

Frankly, I believe that is the real reason for the current ethnic cleansing program. They want the land, but they need to get rid of the people.

 

"Europe and America cannot allow the possibility of a homogeneous Bolshevist state in Palestine, whence the propagandists would be in an excellent position to preach their doctrines throughout Asia, Africa, and the Mediterranean coasts."

We see where this economic justice phobe is clearly coming from. Interesting read, though.

 

So Margot2, you STILL Have NOT answered: "What precisely is a Zionist".
Instead you Spit and Curse about (let's be honest) .. JOOOOOOOOS.
The charge of Bolshevism is really against JOOS, Not Zionists.
Which is, I suppose, why you Cannot answer the simple question/definition of the term.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism

Jewish Bolshevism also known as Judeo-Bolshevism is an Antisemitic Canard which alleges that the Jews were at the origin of the Russian Revolution and held the primary power among Bolsheviks. Similarly, the Jewish Communism theory implies that Jews have been dominating the Communist movements in the world.
It is similar to the ZOG Conspiracy theory, which asserts that Jews control world politics.[1] The expressions have been used as a catchword for the assertion that Communism is a Jewish conspiracy, and it has often coincided with overtly aggressive nationalistic tendencies in the 20th century and 21st century. In Poland, "Judeo-Bolshevism" was known as "Żydokomuna" and was used as an antisemitic stereotype.[2] Most mainstream scholars dismiss this as a conspiracy theory.[3][4]
[......]​

So while demonizing 'Zionism,' you are the unabashed and Pre-eminent Promoter/Propagandist for the Wahhabist Saudi State and it's leadership.
Wonderful!
Ahh, petrodollars!


Edit to Below Failure/repeat.
Margot cannot answer a simple question on a word she uses/Spits hourly, NOR any of the rest of my [historical] post as quoted above.
so Just Repeats a silly Link
and has no answer for Her New Anti-semitic canard either.
And let's be clear again: Jewish Bolshevism has NOT to do with Zionism.
And, consistently, she is the Only Wahhab supporter on the board: about the Worst "ISM". And proud of it.

 

Zionism is a pernicious ISM.......

Zionist Congress:
First Zionist Congress & Basel Program

(August 1897)

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/First_Cong_&_Basel_Program.html

 

The moral blank cheque of the holocaust has been overdrawn..

 

The real problem here is that none of this stuff you spew comes even close to justifying the ethnic cleansing that is going on today and has gone on for decades now.

You are not allowed to steal people's homes, bulldoze their orchards, etc. Yet this is going on as a process organized and run by Israel.