those treaties don't matter when it comes to our national interests, we have violated the sovereign rights of many nations already from the wars in iraq to invading pakistan a nuclear power for bin laden Israel as a nuclear power is important to the US because unlike north korea, iran , pakistan, and india its location provides good positioning for an oil war against non nuclear armed muslim nations and the only real nuclear "ally" we have on that side as christians are more friendly with jews than with muslims. those weaker oil producing muslim nations that are not nuclear powers don't have any real power if the system should break down in a world war 3 that is why iran is a big threat right now on a moral basis would agree tyranny violates the ideals of the US but when the people allow their government to submit to the whims of the powerful and elite they lose certain inalienable rights and must submit themselves to the power of government as a breakdown of the system would cause catastrophy. maybe they can try to change it slowly in the future through grassroots efforts and other inner workings of government but for right now they have lost some of their rights
Israel borders Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon that combined have a total oil output less than that of Norway. It isn't even located on any of the shipping routes for oil. Israel's location makes it completely irrelevant to any issues related to oil in the Middle East nor should the US ever be involved in a war for oil as the US has no rights related to the natural resources of other nations.
agreed it does not have the right to oil in other lands but to logically conclude why the government and many citizens are devoted to Israel it is specifically financial interests not religious interests imo the US was involved in libya because it threatened the stability of the oil market, if a significant amount of nations in the oil market are muslim it makes sense to have an ally country in that region who isn't muslim like Israel
Well, no, Israel COSTS American citizens, and Government money, they don't make them money. But let us assume you are right. Are you suggesting that American politicians unconditionally support international criminality, because it personally benefits them financially, in one way or another, and when you say 'many citizens', please explain to me which American citizens gain financially though lobbying their Gov to support criminality?
the US is the biggest consumer of oil and any foreign aid to Israel is considered an investment rather than an expense to the American taxpayers we need an opposing ally to the islamic oil producing world and israel fits that perfectly as they serve as a check and balance to power in that region which is very favorable to US oil interests criminality is subjective in each respective country it is not a universal term, American politicians support Israel because they are strategic to future conflicts for oil and this why Iran wants a bomb
No, we probably don't consult Mars or Saturn, but it is an international requirement that laws be followed, just as it is a domestic requirement. Esp the biggies - large scale theft and killing. I don't even need laws to tell me those are wrong, and that anyone doing them must not be supported to do so, I merely use my moral compass and my eyes.
would have to defer to the parable of "might makes right" as israel can violate the sovereignty of palestinians the same way US can in iraq, pakistan, etc... respective governments usually does not operate on a moral compass especially when those morals threaten its stability and power
To be honest with you although I find your points interesting the idea that israel serves practically as a military foot hold in the middle east is pure fantasy and hokum. It never has ever served as that, and moreover the last time there was indeed a real conventional war in the middle east involving the west we didnt rely on that area for a foot hold. In fact all we did was land on anywhere we liked in order to get at the germans. This idea about israels usefulness was cooked up AFTER the US got so involved with israel in the post WW2 era.
it is nuclear era and Israel also serves the US for first stike capability, that is why russia wanted cuba to be a nuclear power and caused the cold war crisis we have a nuclear ally closer to them as long as we keep good relations with israel
This is completely false and reflects a complete lack of historical knowledge. The USSR did not want nuclear weapons in Cuba for a first strike capability. It placed nuclear weapons in Cuba to stop a second US invasion of Cuba (the first being the Bay of Pigs). The nuclear weapons were for deterence purposes and not for a first strike capability. Upon receiving a promise from the US that the US would not attempt another invasion of Cuba (as well as assuances that the US would also remove obsolete nuclear weapon sites in Turkey) the USSR quickly removed the nuclear weapons that it had delivered to Cuba.
we can all agree that Israel is a nuclear power and we can all agree that the US is in good relations with them does being good friends with a nuclear power in that region provide any benefit whatsoever to the US military if it decided to go to war with any of the nations on that side of the world such as Iran, North Korea, etc... ?
Again, sorry but hokum. Israel doesnt keep nuclear weapons, nor does it test and practices its long range strike capability for the US. This supposed israeli nuclear counterweight is in response to what threat in the middle east? Answer - none. Israels nuclear weapons such that it has are and always hav been solely for defensive purposes in the event of invasion, not to strike anyone.
We can definitely agree, almost certainly, that Israel have a nuclear arsenal. Thing is, Israel being Israel not only refuse to confirm what they have, or even if they have them, they do not permit inspection, and many are thought to be potentially dangerous. Btw - Although Israel will not confirm that they have nukes, they did offer to sell some to apartheid S Africa. Indeed, apartheid Israel were v good 'friends' with apartheid S Africa. That should tell you something, huh? Little devils(sic) will always reach out to one another. I think we can also agree that Israel's little devils still reach out, only not to apartheid S Africa anymore - but to the little devils in the US politic. Israel do not give a rat's hoop about Americans, other than to dupe, use, and exploit them. That would be bad enough. Even worse are the Neo Cons and American born Zionists who do not give a rat's hoop about fellow Americans. True traitors. Jack
The United States should not be supporting tyrannical government, period. That is the primary point of this thread for those that oppose the tyrannical acts of Israel. The enemy of my enemy is not my friend and might does not make right. No, it provides no benefit whatsoever to the United States and would, in fact, be a detriment to US military operations. Just look back at the Gulf War and the US was plagued with keeping Israel out of the conflict as it would have been detrimental to the US war effort.
agreed Israel does engage in tyrannical acts but so does the US and most every other nation with power, Israel does not serve the US for nothing as the relationship provides plentiful returns wouldnt neccessarily say one nation is exploiting the other they both exploit each other for their own interests
Only if we consider campaign contributions and voter support as the Jewish community is highly active in both regards. So the politicans can and do benefit from US government support for Israel but not the American People. Should we be concerned about what is best for the politicans or instead what is best for America?
it is unfair to single out american jews for the support of foreign policy that contributes to an expense in the US budget the american jewish population is often used as a scapegoat for many things, they are a very small minority in the country and their vote and support for israel or anything else is the david to the goliath of everyone elses interests what is best for america instead of the politicians should be of concern but that is unrelated to the small jewish lobby imo
I will stand corrected as there is also a huge amount of support for Israel from Christains for religious reasons. Religion, as can be shown historically, is not opposed to tyranny which is one reason why the founders of America rejected religion as the foundation for government.
Well there you have it then - these is your answer. The US political elites engage in acts of tyranny, almost as a matter of routine now. The Israeli political elites have been doing that, since they declared themselves a state. That is what they both have in common - they mechanically engage in acts of tyranny. It is not the American people who do this, although some have been fooled into supporting it, but many have not, and they can see with their own eyes that it is the political and corporate elites of the US that endorse tyranny. This proves how far the political elites and their corporate paymasters have drifted from accountability and transparency. If you think of the political elites in the US as being like a criminal mafia, and if you think of the political and religous elites in Israel as also being like a criminal mafia, it all begins to make more sense. It makes sense for two criminal mafia to join forces. Heck, US Gov's, backed by the intelligence services, they have history of secretly experimenting on Americans! Can you really get more unethical than that? We tend to think of pseudo science experiements being conducted, in the context of Nazi Germany, as if they are the only one's that ever stooped that low. And yet, American Gov's have a record for the very same thing. I read a lot about this, a month or so ago, not from some conspiracy site, but as a matter of now public record and fact. Gov's do such things when they have disproportionate levels of power and lack of transparency. And that is the key. The US political and corporate elites have just that. Israel have just that.
I think you grossly underestimate what you call the 'Jewish lobby', and what I would sooner call the 'Israeli lobby', since many Jews, both in the US and ouwith, are most certainly NOT supportive of Israel, and would loathe to be lumped in with those Jews that do, and even those non Jews that do. You almost make this lobby sound like some book club, with 20 members, and no significant influence. Make no mistake here - there is NO more powerful lobby in the US than the Israeli lobby. Nothing even comes close. It is nothing to do with numbers either, albeit there are more Jews in the US than there actually are in the 'Jewish homeland'. Two people can dominate and exploit two hundred people, if they are organised, connected, and able. And that is what the pro Israeli lobby are, they organised themselves in such a way that they would have disproportionate influence in the US politic and the media. I am not sure if that is what the Founding Fathers had in mind for future Americans, but somehow I doubt it. Jack
Israel has a right to exist, in spite of how it was created. What it does need to do is get out of the west bank and dismantle 90% of it's settlements (leave some Jerusalem growth). I don't favor giving it billions in $. They should be left to fend for themselves money wise.
Why? It is a murderous racist colony that only survives by pretending to be Jewish and shouting about pretended victimisation. The people have a right to exist, except possibly the worst child-murderers, who should be tried by an international court.
Of note even West Jerusalem is being illegally occupied by Israel. Israel agreed that it was not a part of Israel in it's 1949 Armistice Agreement with Jordan. East Jerusalem is obviously being occupied illegally as that determination was made by both the UN Security Council, with US support, as well as a review by the United Nations based upon International law.
Who exactly are ' civilians ' in Israel, when everybody is a reservist ? Children, obviously, conscientious objectors, non-combatant seniors. Isn't just about everybody else a legitimate target ?
