Israeli President; Peres: Recognition of Jewish state 'unnecessary'

trout mask replica · Feb 14, 2014

That is not evidence of a programme of systematic ethnic cleansing. I'm not denying the fact that many Jews were persecuted and subject to pogroms that extended beyond the Muslim/Arab world. Schlaim's analysis as well as other Israeli historical narratives and diaspora accounts reflect a more nuanced and accurate historical account.

snakestretcher · Feb 14, 2014

Yetzerhara said: ↑

Therein Snake is a key element to discussing the Middle East conflict. Technically, Syria, Lebanon, even Iraq,all the Arab League nations are in a declared state of war against Israel since1949 but its now really symbolic. Of course Jordan and Egypt with their separate agreements are not.

Then we have say a group like Hamas. Its technically the government of Gaza as it was democratically elected. However part of it is a military unit that does not follow any war conventions and has said so. So it falls outside the 4th Geneva convention when it engages in armed operations.

If it was an official army of the state, its attacking civilians whether they be Palestinians or Israelis which it has done would violate that 4th Geneva Convention.

Lebanon has Hezbollah another confusing legal situation.As it is not the official armed forces of Lebanon it acts as an armed militia within the country and runs a state within a state by defacto force. It told the UN it would disarm and was only armed to defend Lebanon against Israel while Israel was within Lebanon. When Israel withdrew, Hezbollah refused to follow its agreement with the UN to disarm and technically while one of its components has elected officials, the other element is in fact an armed force that violates domestic Lebanese laws and has indicated it will not follow any international laws and thus it engages in Syria and has engaged in Iraq, Gaza and against Israel.

Syria itself has many armed factions fighting its current government and non subscribe to the Geneva convention as you know and the Syrian government openly violates the Geneva Convention with its own civilians and attacks into Lebanon.

Then we have Israel. Technically it does not internationally occupy the West Bank as it was never a sovereign nation so under international law its not an occupying force as envisioned by the convention but Israel did set a precedent it can not legally argue its way out of that by leaving the armed forces permanently on the ground it becomes a defacto government armed force that must act within the scope of the Geneva convention and there is of course debate whether it has used excessive force that would violate that convention. There is also debate whether its use of white phosphorous weapons (as are used by most armed forces today) constants cruel and unusual measures-that is a problem that also applies to the US,Soviets, China, Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Syria, Sudan who have all used white phosphorous weapons which when they come into contact with skin burn right through but slowly.

Then we have Fatah Hawks an armed force that clearly indicates it follows no international laws and the Palestinian Authority that has indicated it has no conventional army but does have a police force that has beaten and tortured Palestinians in clear violation of the Geneva convention.

The US violated the Geneva convention in Iraq, the Soviets in Afghanistan and Iran and Iraq both violated the Geneva convention in wars against each other and the Kurds. The Soviets and Turks have violated the convention with the Kurds and in Chechnya and China has widely violated the convention in Muslim areas of China and of course Tibet. Sudan violated the convention repeatedly in its civil war against its South/

Morsi when President of Egypt used armed forces to attack Coptic Christians in violation of the convention. Now the convention was created to define war rules between nations at war and with uninformed armed forces. It was not drafted envision armed forces being used as political tools or occupation forces or engaged in civil wars against their own civilians and it certainly was not drafted for terrorist units.

So its a huge problem.The international law at the current time has not come up with a treaty nor will it ever on terrorism or add to the convention as to conduct by armed forces when acting as police.

Its needed but its a moot point. For it to apply you would need the terrorist groups to sign on as signatories and they never would not to mention the fact international law is signed by sovereign nations not terrorist cells.

Thus we have this on-going gap in law or convention but what we do know is wherever you look whether it be the Middle East or the world terrorism and armed force response goes on in endless cycles with all kinds of accusations being thrown back and forth and often those accusations are referenced to partisan political views.

As a lawyer I don't look at law from a political perspective. So for example when I look at the West Bank, I don't misuse the legal term for occupation.

However as a jurist I would state that Israel violated international law, not when it entered the West Bank but in fact when it set up civilian government for Israelis on the West Bank but Israeli military administration of Palestinians on the West Bank. That is in fact what it violated under international law if we want to be legally correct and that is a huge problem for Israel because under international law it can not do that or at least is not supposed to.

It has to either annex the entire West Bank and make it Israeli as Jordan once annexed it, or it must administer Isaeli civilians with the same army administration. Either that or it must unilaterally annex those portions where Israelis are civilly administered and withdraw from the rest.

Those are the existing legal options and they don't exactly mesh with current popular political opinion however actual law and politics are not necessarily the same thing although often mixed and fused with people believing the law is to reflect political will. In reality though the law may not. It can be quite arbitrary until someone redrafts it.

Israel can not and has indicated it does not want to annex the West Bank because that would mean it has to grant Palestinians citizenship undermining the Israeli state's wish to be Jewish. It would make the population majority Muslim and because Israel is democratic, it would then vote itself out of being Jewish. So it knows that.

Israel does not even want to remain where Israeli settlers are now. Its interest has always been Jerusalem but not anywhere else. Jerusalem it considers a sacred religious centre that was trashed and humiliated by the Jordanians and then Palestinian Authority. Its a highly emotional issue as to how its religious sites were treated coupled with a very intense memory of synagogues burned and Jews slaughtered in East Jerusalem prior to 1967.

Its further complicated by the fact that the majority of land in the old sector of Jerusalem currently is owned by land title by a plethora of Christian churches each with its own title all recognized by Israel and not recognized by the Palestinian Authority.

Israel in fact pays rent for its Knesset having been built on a Christian church's land because the very Zionism some call on this forum racist. requires it to respect Christian canon law and Christian land title rights.

In a comprehensive peace settlement Israel wants out of the West Bank. Its soldiers do not want to be there. Civilians were first sent in as early warning posts for incoming terrorists but today the security wall and satellite technology replaces that need. Israel would and will prepare a unilateral withdraw behind the security walls and concentrate on East Jerusalem which will actually be the source of heated discussions as you have Jewish land titles, Christian land titles and Palestinian land titles all preceding the creation of Israel,Jordan and the Palestinian authority and taking precedent and that would require some sort of international arbitration panel to deal with.

Israel, Jordan and the PA, behind the closed doors and media, have already began preliminary planning for a mutual water project and an examination of the electric grid, oil pipelines for the three areas and environmental assessments as to current damage from sewage and garbage which threatens all three nations.

So all I can tell you is at one level there is wide spread problems with terrorists acting outside the law, unstable regimes with civil wars and a huge gap in conventional international and domestic security laws all violating human rights in all the nations of the Middle East some it tied to the West Bank disputes but much of it involved with inter Muslim disputes.

I can tell you as a lawyer I do despair it may never resolve politically but I do know from a practical perspective needs such as water, sewage, a place to live and food to eat in conflict zones, find a way to force themselves to be resolved despite the terror and war and break down in government level communications because people, the people, the average nobody on the street no one thinks of, they find each other out of necessity and come up with solutions out of necessity.

From the same turmoil and despair come people who rise out of this darkness and share, and work together.

That may sound quaint to some, but I lived it. I was part of some of those initiatives that may have been silenced by terrorism and reactions to it, but those grass roots operations are still there and the people on both sides still reach out to each other sharing water, food, clothing, etc. on a charitabl level. You may not read it in the media, but its there.
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Thanks for this. A truly well-reasoned response.

snakestretcher · Feb 14, 2014

Face said: ↑

It was singed into law by the Arab League in 1947:

JEWS DISPLACED FROM ARAB COUNTRIES: A STORY OF COLLUSION

http://www.justiceforjews.com/chrono_web.pdf

Text of the Law Drafted by the Political Committee of the Arab League
Summary

In 1947, the Political Committee of the Arab League (League of Arab States) drafted a law which was to govern the legal status of Jewish residents in all Arab League countries. This law had already been approved by Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Iraq, provided that, “beginning with a specified date, all Jews – with the exception of citizens of non-Arab countries – were to be considered members of the Jewish ‘minority state of Palestine,’ and that their bank account be frozen and used to finance resistance to ‘Zionist ambitions in Palestine.’ Jews believed to be active Zionists would be interned as political prisoners and their assets confiscated. Only Jews who accept active service in Arab armies or place themselves at the disposal of these armies would be considered ‘Arabs.’” 1

Excerpts of Direct Quotes of the Law drafted by the Political Committee of the Arab League

• “All Jewish citizens…will be considered as members of the Jewish minority of the State of Palestine and will have to register [“within 7 days”] with the authorities of the region wherein they reside, giving their names, the exact number of members in their families, their addresses, the names of their banks and the amounts of their deposits in these banks…”2

• “Bank accounts of Jews will be frozen. These funds will be utilized in part or in full to finance the movement of resistance to Zionist ambitions in Palestine.”3

• “Only Jews who are subjects of foreign countries will be considered ‘neutrals.’ These will be compelled either to return to their countries, with a minimum of delay, or be considered Arabs and obliged to accept active service in the Arab army.”4

• “Every Jew whose activities reveal that he is an active Zionist will be considered as a political prisoner and will be interned in places specifically designated for that purpose by police authorities or by the Government. His financial resources, instead of being frozen, will be confiscated.”5

• “Any Jew who will be able to prove that his activities are anti-Zionist will be free to act as he likes, provided that he declares his readiness to join the Arab armies.”6

• “The foregoing…does not mean that those Jews will not be submitted to paragraphs 1 and 2 of this law.”7

1 Memorandum Submitted to the U.N. Economic and Social Council by the World Jewish Congress. (Jan. 19, 1948 ) Section I. (2) a. June 2, 1948. [ZIIC - This reference is in the document prepared by JJAC and is probably incorrect]

2 Text of the Law drafted by the Political Committee of the Arab League. Paragraph 1.

3 ibid. Paragraph 2.

4 ibid. Paragraph 3.

5 ibid. Paragraph 5.

6 ibid. Paragraph 6.

7 ibid. Paragraph 7. (Paragraph 1 & 2 indicate all Jews must register and disclose personal and banking information and

that bank accounts will be frozen and utilized for anti-Zionist resistance.)

http://www.zionism-israel.com/hdoc/Arab_League_Law_Jews.htm
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Nothing here remotely suggesting a policy of ethnic cleansing. On the contrary it makes it clear that only active Zionists would be interned as political prisoners for acting against Arab interests.
Please provide documentary evidence of the official policy of ethnic cleansing.

Dutch · Feb 14, 2014

trout mask replica said: ↑

That's the same wiki piece CAPs posted which I've already debunked. You stick with wiki, and I'll stick with the accounts of Israeli historians.

- - - Updated - - -

Who's the "Helen Thomas Mob"? It seems you have an unhealthy fetish with her.....LOL.
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You "debunked" wiki? YOU?

trout mask replica · Feb 14, 2014

Dutch said: ↑

You "debunked" wiki? YOU?
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Nope, I've debunked the notion that Jews were subjected to a systematic programme of ethnic cleansing in the post-war years.

Dutch · Feb 14, 2014

trout mask replica said: ↑

Nope, I've debunked the notion that Jews were subjected to a systematic programme of ethnic cleansing in the post-war years.
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And wiki says, you're wrong.

trout mask replica · Feb 14, 2014

Dutch said: ↑

And wiki says, you're wrong.
Click to expand...

Where specifically?

CaptainAngryPants · Feb 14, 2014

trout mask replica said: ↑

Nope, I've debunked the notion that Jews were subjected to a systematic programme of ethnic cleansing in the post-war years.
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The only thing debunked here are your childish denials. Maybe you don't quite realize how completely ridiculous you appear.

Yetzerhara · Feb 14, 2014

Why anyone would want to deny the expulsion of Jews from the Muslim world is beyond me. Then again people continue to deny the holocaust.

Public domain now records that the expulsion was done deliberately as part of a two step approach by the Arab League.

One step was to deliberately imprison displaced Arabs from the 1949 war in prison camps and tell the world they would be used as captives held hostage until Israel was liberated from the Jews.

The next thing it did was to throw out as many Jews as it could from their countries as collective punishment for having been unable to win its war against the Jews of Palestine.

I believe the denial of Jews beinf refugees from Europe and the Arab world manifests a collective psychosis in the Christian and Muslim collective psyches that can not perceive of a Jew as being anything but a cursed person deserving of their punishment.

I believe this denial is a deeply entrenched collective psychosis passed on generation to generation in the non Jewish world and I think it will take many more centuries to be overcome.

I believe the inability of the world as expressed in today's comments on Israel and holocaust survivors or the Jews who had to flee the Middle East Arab League nations ihas fused two forms of anti-semitism, one from Europe and one from the Muslim world into one ugly spectre of hatred and revisionist denial of what happened to Jews.

The attempt to deny the ethnic cleansing like the attempts to deny the holocaust or depict holocaust victims or Arab Jewish refugees asnto being victims speaks for itself.

Here deny these articles all you want:

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/The-ethnic-cleansing-of-Arabic-Jews

http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/article/The-vanishing-Jews-of-the-Arab-world-Baghdad-2694221.php

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/The-forgotten-refugees-322653

http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2013/06/20/mk-ohayon-un-refugee-day-for-jews-from-arab-lands-too/

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/24036/Default.aspx

HBendor · Feb 14, 2014

trout mask replica said: ↑

That is not evidence of a programme of systematic ethnic cleansing. I'm not denying the fact that many Jews were persecuted and subject to pogroms that extended beyond the Muslim/Arab world. Schlaim's analysis as well as other Israeli historical narratives and diaspora accounts reflect a more nuanced and accurate historical account.
Click to expand...

Thank you... here you go... read more... There are more than ONE MILLION Jews from Arab Countries demanding reparations for loss of Real Estate, Bank Account, homes and all kind of other properties including their Businesses. I am not talking of Jewelry confiscated before they left... In other words they left with only their shirts on and shoes without laces.

notme · Feb 14, 2014

snakestretcher said: ↑

Nothing here remotely suggesting a policy of ethnic cleansing. On the contrary it makes it clear that only active Zionists would be interned as political prisoners for acting against Arab interests.
Click to expand...

Indeed it does. It states rather clear that when a Jew is willing to fight for the interests of his native Arab country, than those Jews would be left untouched. But if a Jew living in an Arab would country side with Israel, than the Arab country would be considered that Jew as a traitor etc etc.

Something odd with that?

Like if a US citizen saying he is going to fight for Osama Bin Laden after 9-11, would have nothing to fear.

notme · Feb 14, 2014

HBendor said: ↑

Thank you... here you go... read more... There are more than ONE MILLION Jews from Arab Countries demanding reparations for loss of Real Estate, Bank Account, homes and all kind of other properties including their Businesses. I am not talking of Jewelry confiscated before they left... In other words they left with only their shirts on and shoes without laces.
Click to expand...

Lots of Arab countries had laws for years saying it's illegal for a Jew to immigrate to Israel. While Israeli Jews did everything to get those Jews in Israel to populate the land they ethnically cleansed. And lots of Jews just took the airplane to Israel eventually... ate their complementary nuts etc... and now go boo hoo we left our belongings behind for wanting to live on ethnically cleansed land.. so please give us money... well, that's just sick.

trout mask replica · Feb 15, 2014

Yetzerhara said: ↑

Why anyone would want to deny the expulsion of Jews from the Muslim world is beyond me. Then again people continue to deny the holocaust.

Public domain now records that the expulsion was done deliberately as part of a two step approach by the Arab League.

One step was to deliberately imprison displaced Arabs from the 1949 war in prison camps and tell the world they would be used as captives held hostage until Israel was liberated from the Jews.

The next thing it did was to throw out as many Jews as it could from their countries as collective punishment for having been unable to win its war against the Jews of Palestine.

I believe the denial of Jews beinf refugees from Europe and the Arab world manifests a collective psychosis in the Christian and Muslim collective psyches that can not perceive of a Jew as being anything but a cursed person deserving of their punishment.

I believe this denial is a deeply entrenched collective psychosis passed on generation to generation in the non Jewish world and I think it will take many more centuries to be overcome.

I believe the inability of the world as expressed in today's comments on Israel and holocaust survivors or the Jews who had to flee the Middle East Arab League nations ihas fused two forms of anti-semitism, one from Europe and one from the Muslim world into one ugly spectre of hatred and revisionist denial of what happened to Jews.

The attempt to deny the ethnic cleansing like the attempts to deny the holocaust or depict holocaust victims or Arab Jewish refugees asnto being victims speaks for itself.

Here deny these articles all you want:

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/The-ethnic-cleansing-of-Arabic-Jews

http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/article/The-vanishing-Jews-of-the-Arab-world-Baghdad-2694221.php

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/The-forgotten-refugees-322653

http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2013/06/20/mk-ohayon-un-refugee-day-for-jews-from-arab-lands-too/

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/24036/Default.aspx
Click to expand...

Yep, everyone is misguided and wrong except some paranoid and delusional Jews.

trout mask replica · Feb 15, 2014

HBendor said: ↑

Thank you... here you go... read more... There are more than ONE MILLION Jews from Arab Countries demanding reparations for loss of Real Estate, Bank Account, homes and all kind of other properties including their Businesses. I am not talking of Jewelry confiscated before they left... In other words they left with only their shirts on and shoes without laces.
Click to expand...

Please provide evidence that there was a post WW2 systematic programme of ethnic cleansing of Jews. Thanks..

trout mask replica · Feb 15, 2014

CaptainAngryPants said: ↑

The only thing debunked here are your childish denials. Maybe you don't quite realize how completely ridiculous you appear.
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Then you will happily provide evidence of the existence of a systematic programme of ethnic cleansing of Jews post WW2. Cheers.

Yetzerhara · Feb 15, 2014

trout mask replica said: ↑

Yep, everyone is misguided and wrong except some paranoid and delusional Jews.
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So these jews that were thrown out are paranoid and delusional? That's your response? You really think history goes poof with you throwing out a collective insult and smeer that is blatantly anti-semitic and hateful? Why lower yourself?

Yetzerhara · Feb 15, 2014

trout mask replica said: ↑

Then you will happily provide evidence of the existence of a systematic programme of ethnic cleansing of Jews post WW2. Cheers.
Click to expand...

It was provided to you by me and you spit back an insult.

This is why he does not bother with you, He has seen you do this time and time again on this forum-ask for evidence then ignore the evidence.

Its a tiresome m.o this sticking your tongue out

I did not come on here to bait you. You want to throw out insults against Jews you deny exist go ahead. Knock yourself out.

trout mask replica · Feb 16, 2014

Yetzerhara said: ↑

It was provided to you by me.....
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No it wasn't.

Yetzerhara · Feb 16, 2014

trout mask replica said: ↑

No it wasn't.
Click to expand...

So what is post 634 Trout? Come on now. Enough. You made no effort to respond to it other than to spit at it. That is your choice. Pretending that post does not exist is what? Is that like pretending Jews were not expelled from Arab League nations deliberately and used as pawns justa s the Palestinians were?

Really? Poof you say it aint so, so it aint so?

Come on Trout. I am not hear to slag you. I am hear to challenge your views and I did present a response.

I challenge you as I do all, not to agree with me but to challenge me and tell me why they think I am wrong. I am not patronizing you. I treat you as an equal. Speak up. Tell me why you don't think the Jews were expelled from Arab League nations.

Denying history is what fuels future conflicts.

Can I be any clearer? I challenge your take on the Middle East because I believe you are blind to but one side of events you think happened.

The fact you can not bring yourself to accept public fact speaks for itself. Its like denying the holocaust. I have seen many young people do that. I challenge them precisely because I believe if they forget history they will repeat its mistakes.

Understand it this way-I challenge you to be a better person than I by using your gift of free thought and ability to critically reason.

Empower yourself through debate. I respect you. Don't just shut me out the moment you disagree. Ignorance is simply you and I being deaf to one another.

At least try meet me half way with a thought out response.

If I did not respect your right to disagree I would not take all this time debating you.

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