Project Gunrunner

Right, problem is what they call proof, the rest of us see as BS.

 

Your analysis actually confirms my numbers. Only 28% of Americans personally own guns. Why on Earth would you count someone else's gun as your own?

 

I am too, friend. How could you not have noticed?

Your "poll" is a contrived sham intended to take advantage of the high numbers of anti-control gun owners that frequent this particular sub-forum. The Gallup poll shows how far off your results actually are. It's only too bad for you that you can't dismiss this particular survey because you yourself have used the same poll yourself.

Huge Fail.

 

No, it doesn't.

The question that was asked was "Do you personally own a gun, or do the gun or guns in your household belong to another household member?", and the answers given were that 28% own a firearm, 13% belong to another family member, 57% do not own a gun, and 2% have no opinion.

So, as evidenced by the Gallup poll you posted - 57% of the respondents do not own a gun, not the 70% that you claimed.

We have four pistols and a revolver - I have a pistol and a revolver, my wife has a pistol, and both of my stepdaughters have a pistol. My wife has her pistol registered in her name, while I have the remaining firearms in mine. If you ask either of my stepdaughters if they own a pistol, their answer would truthfully be "No."

I surmise that this scenario is what is being reflected in the Gallup poll - women who do not own guns, but instead have them provided to them by their husband, father, or other family member.

 

My poll is a contrived sham in your eyes simply because it does not reflect your assertion that most gun owners support stricter gun control.

That is a huge fail, my friend.

 

You "surmise" a lot, apparently. If one is asked if they own a gun, and they honestly respond 'no', then they do NOT own a gun regardless if someone else in their family does. This is common sense, SpotsCat.

I'm surprised you would try to twist this fact.

 

It's not my "assertion", friend. You know this.

Even conservative pollster Frank Luntz, came to the same results. He found that even NRA members agree:

* 82% want a law prohibiting people on the terrorist watch lists from purchasing guns.
* 69% want a law requiring all gun sellers at gun shows to conduct criminal background checks of the people buying guns.
* 78% want a law requiring gun owners to alert police if their guns are lost or stolen.
* 82% want a law requiring gun retailers to perform background checks on all employees to ensure they are not felons.

Guess what? These are all proposed and stricter gun laws.

Imagine!



Stick with your contrived poll,.......it's much safer that way.

 

The only twisting (I prefer the term "spinning") is by you, amigo!

The question asked in the poll you referenced was "Do you personally own a gun, or do the gun or guns in your household belong to another household member?", and the answers given were that 28% own a firearm, 13% belong to another family member, 57% do not own a gun, and 2% have no opinion.

So to say that 70% do not own a gun is incorrect by the terminology used to ask the question. The valid question that should have been asked is "Do you personally own a gun?", and then use the responses given.

Ask a direct question - get a direct answer.

 

They would already be disqualified.

They pretty much all do already.

All legal gun owners would already do this.

They could not purchase guns already if they are felons, and most employers already do background checks.

These proposals are over-regulation, IMHO.

Michael Bloomberg and Mayors Against Illegal Guns - LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Need I say more?

 

I'm surprised you're having trouble with this simple concept, SpotsCat. We must assume that the respondents answered predominantly honestly, (at least it would help our discussion if we are both approaching this from this singular perspective) correct? If so, then the accurate responses to the particular survey question asked allows us to glean only what percentage of Americans own guns and what percentage do not. Anything else would be conjecture, right?

You seem to be stuck on some sort of semantic that actually changes nothing in the final results.

Now then, the other kind member here insists that his "poll" is an accurate reflection of American attitudes even though his results show a MUCH higher percentage of gun ownership (some 150% more, if my math serves me). So how exactly, can we have an accurate representation of attitudes when the sampling is so skewed towards one demographic, I ask you?

 

Then you would be wrong. Being on the terror watch list does NOT entitle you to be disqualified from purchasing a gun.

Fail.

Ah, wrong again. Most states do NOT require private gun sales at gun shows to be regulated by criminal background checks.

Fail again.

Wrong again. Legal gun owners don't always report lost or stolen guns, but more importantly (and the purpose of this legislation) are the legal gun owners that illegally sell their guns to criminals.

Most NRA members would like to see this law passed and you,..... well,.... you are obviously to the far right of even NRA members. Good to know.

Fail. Whether or not their employees can purchase a gun legally is irrelevant to the question, friend. The question concerns whether gun dealers should be mandated to require background checks to all their employees and most (82%) of NRA members fully support that. I see that you are once again in the minority on this. Pity.

Duh! No kidding! Thank you for confirming that your views are even more extreme than most NRA members. Surprise.

 

You call it "semantics", I call it "factual accuracy".

 

That's a dodge, SpotsCat. If it were "factual accuracy" then you would have an easy time substantiating it. Thus far, you have not been able to do this, however. The poll shows that only 28% of Americans own guns, while 70% do not.



Now then, the other kind member here insists that his "poll" is an accurate reflection of American attitudes even though his results show a MUCH higher percentage of gun ownership (some 150% more, if my math serves me). So how exactly, can we have an accurate representation of attitudes when the sampling is so skewed towards one demographic, I ask you?

 

Read the poll you posted, please. Don't try to extrapolate data from it, just please read it, and read it carefully.

Unless my vision has gone completely to hell in a bucket, and I've lost all reading comprehension, it clearly says that 57% of the respondents do not own a gun.

I understand how you came up with the 70% figure, but in the instance of the poll cited, it's incorrect.

 

A background check would reveal this, and they would be disqualified. No sane gun dealer is going to sell to someone on this list.

Many do anyway.

Any law-abiding gun owner would certainly report a stolen gun. It is the criminals that won't.

Most employers do background checks on their employees already.


Mayor Bloomberg and his Mayors Against Illegal Guns is a well-known anti-gun lobby.

 

This really isn't that difficult, SpotsCat. The question asked of the respondents was this:

"Do you personally own a gun, or do the gun or guns in your household belong to another household member?"
​

In other words they were allowing the respondents to answer accurately. Common English grammar tells us, however that an answer in the negative to whether the respondent owns a gun AND a positive reply to whether household guns belong to someone else BOTH tell us that the respondent does not own a gun. Hence the 28% to 70% ratio. Either you own a gun or you don't.


Now then, you keep dodging this question; the other kind member here insists that his "poll" is an accurate reflection of American attitudes even though his results show a MUCH higher percentage of gun ownership (some 150% more, if my math serves me). So how exactly, can we have an accurate representation of attitudes when the sampling is so skewed towards one demographic, I ask you?

 

Your naivete is showing on this. You clearly are not fully appraised of the gun laws you claim to be against. Luckily, other NRA members are more rational on this, however. A 'gun purchase background check' does not show the 'terror watch list'. This is currently a secret list and unavailable to citizens for this purpose.

Sales to people on the 'terror watch list' happens all the time, I'm afraid. Unfortunately for you, most NRA members by a huge 82% believe that those on the 'terror watch list' should be disallowed from gun purchases by requiring and allowing the dealers to access this information.

More inanity, I'm afraid. Your answer doesn't even make any logical sense. Are you REALLY saying that out of the States that do not require 'background checks' for private purchases at gun shows, that "Many do anyway"??? In other words, their State laws don't call for something that these States end up requiring anyways????

You clearly haven't thought this fully through in your biased haste. Fortunately, we see that other NRA members HAVE taken the time to consider the question logically and agree that this law should be changed in the States that have this wrong.

That's the whole idea genius. Nice of you to catch up finally. Fortunately, you don't speak for the majority of other NRA members who saw the logic of this law by a whopping 78%.

Oh? You blind faith is comforting, but we do live by the rule of law and most NRA members by 82% believe this obvious thing should be a law.

Your disagreement with the majority of your cohorts only highlights the distance between yourself and and the majority of Americans on this topic. It's only ironic that you profess to speak for so many who you disagree with.

Maybe you should do a tainted poll on this.

The author of this survey is a well-known conservative pollster. Nice try though.

 

And what is the answer to the poll question? "28% own a firearm, 13% belong to another family member, 57% do not own a gun, and 2% have no opinion."

Not 70% as you keep claiming, but the answer to the question that was asked was 57%.

I'm not concerned about other polls from other members - I'm merely trying to point out that in the poll you cited, it's erroneous to claim 70% non-ownership when the question clearly indicates otherwise.

 

And does the respondent own the guns that they said actually "belong to another family member"? No, of course they don't. Frankly, it's silly to suggest anything other than they do NOT own those guns at a 13% clip. Why is this so hard for you?


If you are asked if you own an IPod, and you respond "no, my brother owns one though", then you STILL don't own that IPOD, do you? Sheesh!

That's an odd response coming from someone who felt the poll important enough to weigh in with a vote as you did. I'm curious what is keeping you from honestly appraising the results now. Don't let bias cloud your judgment friend. Take a stab at it.

 

Mayors Against Illegal Guns. Michael Bloomberg. Need I say more?

 

Hearings Scheduled, Subpoenas To Be Issued In "Project Gunrunner" Investigation:

Friday, June 10, 2011

The ongoing and escalating investigation into the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives' "Project Gunrunner" program has ratcheted up another notch this week as it was reported that subpoenas will soon be issued to federal officials associated with this controversial program.

Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.), Chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, will issue the subpoenas in yet another attempt to find out if "Project Gunrunner" contributed to the killing of a Border Patrol agent. Rep. Issa's committee has also announced that two hearings on this disastrous operation will be held next week (Monday from 1:00 -- 3:00 p.m., and Wednesday from 9:30 -- 11:30 a.m.).

"Fast and Furious" was a part of the five-year-old "Project Gunrunner" program that encouraged border-state dealers to sell thousands of guns to suspicious buyers, even after suspecting these buyers were working for Mexican drug cartels.

A June 6 article in TheHill reports that two of the guns from the operation were found at the scene of an Arizona gun battle in December between U.S. law enforcement and members of a drug gang. That exchange resulted in the tragic death of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry, but officials have not revealed whether the bullet that struck him came from the guns the BATFE was supposed to be tracking. The article also reports that guns from the "Fast and Furious" operation might have been used in an attack on a Mexican government helicopter that was grounded after being fired upon by suspected members of a drug cartel.

Issa has been critical of the Department of Justice, which oversees BATFE, for refusing to provide all of the documents he's requested and for not making available all of the officials he's attempted to interview.

According to the article, Rep. Issa said in a recent interview with Fox News, "We have a slew of subpoenas we expect to be issuing for people here in Washington. What we haven't gotten one bit of is -- here in Washington, far away from the actual investigation and prosecutions that they seem to be using as a façade to protect them -- here in Washington, they're not making one agent available, one hierarchy available, and we will be issuing subpoenas because we have to," Issa said.

Stay tuned to future Grassroots Alerts for new developments.

Source: http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Federal/Read.aspx?id=6908

 

But the question that was asked wasn't whether or not someone owns a gun, the question asked was whether or not the guns in your household belong to you or another family member.

You're taking a specific question that was asked and trying to extrapolate data from it to prove a different contention.

Why, oh Lord, do you fail to see the error of what you're doing?

 

A predictable guilt by association fallacy from you, friend.

The author of this survey is a noted CONSERVATIVE pollster, Frank Luntz. You know,.... a regular contributor to FOX news?

You can't make a cogent argument based on either the results of this survey NOR on any alleged flaws in its methodology. Need I say more?

 

Nothing political there, eh?

 

This is an outright falsehood. The question asked BOTH. The first part of the question asked; "Do you personally own a gun".

Regardless of what the underlying intention of the question was, we can take data from the answers, friend.

Look, this is done all the time. Please indulge me here in order to give perspective. If a survey intended to find out what flavor Popsicles consumers prefer by asking; "Do you have any Popsicles in your house and if yes what flavor are they?", the results could well help the pollster with the answers they wish, but the results can also show us the percentage of households that have Popsicles in their fridges, right? An unintended, yet accurate benefit of the poll. There is no difference as to this particular survey question that you have an issue with.