The Unique US Failure to Control the Virus

OMG, Trump had ZERO to do with why we shut down

 

Sure. That’s my point. We always want to do just the bare minimum to get by. Not really sacrifice anything for a bigger payoff. As @Quantum Nerd points out it isn’t limited to pandemics. It’s part of our makeup.

 

He did. The same genius who predicted climate change Armageddon gave Birx & Fauci the 2.2 million dead Americans prediction, which they and blue state Mayors and Governors were breathless over. It took Trump some time to understand the motives of the career experts and take the action he could take, not being a dictator.

 

Whose life would you like to sacrifice besides old people who overwhelmingly succumb to COVID-19. Fathers of 3 with businesses that go bankrupt? Young families who can't make their mortgage payments? Everything is a tradeoff. Cuomo spit in Trump's eye for all the help he was given and decided to shut down NY for months for everything but riots in order to throw the election to Biden. Now he wants Red states to bail him out.

 

I completely agree. There is a kind of selfishness at play that has been highlighted with this virus. People don't think that rules apply to them. And their notion of 'essential' is way off the mark. And while I understand and agree with those who don't like the government to tell them what to do, we've proved that we won't do it on our own. Like children who won't obey the rules, we need to have someone tell us what to do. For the good of all. I didn't like to see the economy shut down, but it was for a good reason. Unfortunately, it was reopened too early and irresponsibly - so we are in far worse shape than we were in the first wave. And, sadly, I don't see this changing any time soon. The economy will limp on instead of spring back.

 

LOL. I’m guilty as **ll on the sugar intake thing. I should get it out of my diet because lowering my baseline inflammation level would make me better prepared to avoid severe C19 symptoms. Am I? Take a guess!

For what it’s worth, I’ll mount a defense of humanity against the accusation we are like other animals in respect to irrational decisions and instincts. I’ll use a couple real world examples.
1) I have never, ever, seen a person eating a plate of spaghetti stand up and instead of waking 30 feet to the restroom take a leak in the spaghetti and continue eating. This is common behavior in the (non human) animal world.
2) Concern for the welfare of others in most animals is limited to temporary maternal protective instincts. A sick or dying animal is most often ignored or even abused in some manner by it’s peers as it dies. In contrast, even here at PF, I’ve seen people who disagree almost violently on every issue show concern for the physical well being of their opponents.

That said, your point is valid. We may be a bit more logical than our animal brothers and sisters, but it seems sometimes we are drawn to devolve back to their level.

 

No, I haven't considered any of what you are saying because none of it is true.

One, the genomic sequence of the virus shows that it was not man-made. This has been extensively demonstrated.

Two, the case-fatality rate for the flu is 0.1%, so, no, it's not similar to the flu (hint: 1% is ten times more than 0.1%), and it's not just the dead. At least 5% of survivors come out of it with serious complications such as strokes, heart inflammation, lung fibrosis, kidney insufficiency, neurological issues, etc, unlike the flu.

Three, the vast majority of drugs being studied to treat COVID-19 are generic, repurposed, cheap, and out-of-patent drugs with, that I know of, the ONE exception of remdesivir which is under patent by a small start-up (Gilead Sciences) so none of the Big Pharma corporations will benefit from it, so to assume that this is some sort of plot by Big Pharma is preposterous.

Four, not to forget the inconsistency you've just mentioned. If this virus were man-made (hint: it is not) oh boy, what a lousy job in terms of a biological weapon that only kills 1% of the people, huh, when viruses of the same family like the MERS kills 34%. LOL

Five, according to Political Forum guidelines, conspiracy theories about COVID-19 belong to the Conspiracy Theories forum, not to the COVID-19 forum, so please kindly direct your concerns to that area of the website.

 

Me too. As soon as it is available I'm willing to take it.

 

No sacrifice of life. If you had all dealt with the pandemic as I did (and propose we ought to have all done), we would have been shut down early for 3 weeks or so. Everyone would have had food, water, and other necessities to easily live at home for three weeks. Essential utilities would be a challenge but actually pretty easy to handle for three weeks of sacrificing immediate wants for an end to the pandemic. Short term sacrifice for long term gain. Better for mortality rates and the economy because the economy could have been opened fully in April or certainly May.

To be very clear I’m stating options. I’m not advocating for a government mandated stay at home order.

 

Pray tell, what states were shut down for months???
About countries using HCQ having low fatality rate, I've debunked it so extensively in another post (you can look it up in my posting history if you are curious) that I don't even have the energy to repeat the numerous arguments showing how misleading this is, but I'll give you three: likely the country with the highest utilization of this drug is Brazil where their crazy president is a huge fan and distributes it to the population by the millions of tablets... and they have one of the highest fatality rates in the world. Selective quoting, just picking a few countries to make the correlation and ignoring the ones where the correlation doesn't fit (Two, like Japan that has a very low fatality rate and where no one uses HCQ), will convince every day people who don't consider the entire set of data. Three, they used the mortality in Italy to compare, quoting it as a country that doesn't use HCQ since their FDA equivalent has recently banned it... conveniently refraining from clarifying that the vast majority of Italian deaths happened while they were still extensively using HCQ; it's only AFTER they had their contagion under control (through epidemiological measures with one of the strictest lockdowns in the world) that they banned HCQ. But these were only three arguments I made there. There are several others.

 

True but only because we did a very partial and heterogeneous lockdown. Countries that did it better did curb the contagion to a trickle that then can be managed with contact tracing, and their economies are back to recovery, while we did a very partial and short lockdown, achieved nothing, and our economy continues to be in trouble.
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Hopefully we will never let inventories of PPE collapse the way they did after Bush stocked them in response to SARs or allow their manufacture to be totally outsourced to an enemy.[/QUOTE]
In this, I agree with you. Ceding our means of production of PPE to China was a big mistake and we're paying the price, now. When will people understand that PPE are national security items? To allow us to depend on China of all places for this, was a colossal error. And there are more items that we've ceded to them and shouldn't have. But it's done in search of a quick profit from cheap labor.

 

Good points but I actually do believe that at least two vaccine candidates, the Oxford/AstraZeneca, and the Pfizer/BioNTech, *will* be ready by the end of the year, and the contracts made with them for hundreds of millions of doses suppose the delivery of the vaccines not in bulk, but already in vials (and AstraZeneca and Pfizer are mega corporations with extensive expertise and infra-structure for this kind of thing - one of the reasons why Wall Street investors are actually betting on one of the two getting the upper hand in the race, regardless of the progress made by the small start-up Moderna which had appeared at one point as the likely winner of the race).

The logistics of distribution aren't that horrible since basically we can use the same infrastructure and network we use to deliver about 160 million doses of flu shots every year. And I did hear word that the administration is preparing for a large November/December campaign to enhance the acceptance of the vaccine and to then start vaccinating immediately when the doses are delivered. I just hope that if Trump loses on November 3, he won't pull back and sabotage the whole thing, out of spite, because he'll still be the president until January 20 and I wonder, in his callous narcissism, if he will want to carry on with an initiative that ultimately will benefit his successor (despite it benefiting the American people; something I'm not sure Trump has as a priority).

 

Worldometer: Daily new cases USA 7-day-moving-average 7-25 69,190

Worldometer: Daily new cases USA 7-day-moving-average 8-06 56,559

That's a nationwide decrease of 18% in a dozen days -- very, very good

Yesterday ABC GMA said there were more then 2000 USA corona deaths in the last day: They LIED! They paint such a bleak picture you'd think the world would not last another week.

Worldometer fact check: 1319 USA corona deaths on August 5, the day in focus that GMA said there was over 2000.

But even with all the Marxist Media Mediocre lies why hasn't the pandemic gone better?

Science simply has had nothing at all to offer so far.

All we have are the medieval methods of mask, distance, and washy, and that ain't a much.

Still, Mama said use what you got. Even if it ain't a much. Something is better than nothing.

 

Hopefully we will never let inventories of PPE collapse the way they did after Bush stocked them in response to SARs or allow their manufacture to be totally outsourced to an enemy.[/QUOTE]
In this, I agree with you. Ceding our means of production of PPE to China was a big mistake and we're paying the price, now. When will people understand that PPE are national security items? To allow us to depend on China of all places for this, was a colossal error. And there are more items that we've ceded to them and shouldn't have. But it's done in search of a quick profit from cheap labor.[/QUOTE]
Pharmaceutical manufacture was outsourced. Look up annual reports of pharma companies --- even from a few years ago ---
The cost of production was next to nothing. Development, clinical trials, regulatory costs are huge. That goes back b4 the outsourcing. So, they let foreign countries dictate prices they will pay for the various drugs. As long as they could get away with Americans doing the heavy lifting, they could still afford to develop new drugs. Trump figured out the game and he's fixing it ,,, or putting pharma in a position that they have to fix it.

I'm thinking outsourcing PPE has to do with the Obamacare medical device tax.

 

In this, I agree with you. Ceding our means of production of PPE to China was a big mistake and we're paying the price, now. When will people understand that PPE are national security items? To allow us to depend on China of all places for this, was a colossal error. And there are more items that we've ceded to them and shouldn't have. But it's done in search of a quick profit from cheap labor.[/QUOTE]
Pharmaceutical manufacture was outsourced. Look up annual reports of pharma companies --- even from a few years ago ---
The cost of production was next to nothing. Development, clinical trials, regulatory costs are huge. That goes back b4 the outsourcing. So, they let foreign countries dictate prices they will pay for the various drugs. As long as they could get away with Americans doing the heavy lifting, they could still afford to develop new drugs. Trump figured out the game and he's fixing it ,,, or putting pharma in a position that they have to fix it.

I'm thinking outsourcing PPE has to do with the Obamacare medical device tax.[/QUOTE]


Any and all manufacturing of any variety done in the USA is in the interest of national security.

 

So, you look at two data points and you get all excited? The pandemic goes up and down everywhere. No, there isn't anything "very very good" here. It's just that epicenters keep moving from one place to the next, more or less densely populated, and things go up and down. When the NY-NJ numbers started to cool down the national numbers were down, but only if you counted the decline in cases there. If you took out the NY-NJ numbers, you could notice that it was actually going up elsewhere. So, an epicenter runs its course, national totals decrease... until the next epicenter. This is not over yet. Don't get into the "mission accomplished" mindset, it tends to backfire on you.

Are you under the impression that 56K cases and 1,319 deaths in a day are a good result???
Newsflash, there are populous European countries having zero to three deaths per day.

"Science simply has had nothing at all to offer so far" - that's only true for those who don't know how to follow what is going on in the scientific front. Remdesivir, early dexamethasone, early enoxaparin, high flow 02 rather than invasive ventilation, are all recent changes in the critical case management protocol that have dramatically decreased ICU mortality (one of the reasons why deaths are "only" 1,319 in a day), the full virus genoma was known by January 9th, and vaccine development has been at least four times faster than the previous record of four years (measles) and ten times faster than the usual process of ten years.

The above is just for starters... the amount of scientific work thrown at this virus is unprecedented and highly successful considering that this disease wasn't even around as recently as November 2019.

Anyway, mask, distance, and washy, all good. We need to use epidemiological means of control while we develop the clinical means of control.

 

Yes, most of our drugs come from India, now. Fortunately they are not unfriendly... but things can change in geopolitics pretty fast.

Do you have any convincing evidence of that?

 

When you talk about cases you need to talk about the number of tests in the same paragraph.
The number of tests for your time period was down 13%.
Not that I won't take the 5% but.....

 

Humans are selfish. It starts at birth with crying to get what we want. It doesn’t change, we just get more sophisticated in our methodology. Selfishness drives the more ambitious to capitalism as a means of getting what they want and drives the less ambitious to socialism as a means of acquiring what they want.

I have to disagree on force. I demonstrated people can and do behave correctly. I know and know of many people who did as I did. I believe in freedom with consequences for actions taken or not taken. I don’t believe those of us who were prepared for this eventuality deserve authoritarian rule because others were irresponsible/unprepared. This is where my above comments on ambitious vs less ambitious comes full circle. Force in this case would be the less ambitious attempting to take advantage of the more ambitious to get what they aren’t willing to provide for themselves.

I agree wholeheartedly with your description of economic consequences of our failure to end this thing quickly one way or another.

 

I’ve held the position comparing the entire US to other countries is tough. I think it’s more logical to compare individual states to European countries for example. Or Hawaii with Australia, not the entire US with Australia.

I understand why we compare countries, but since (correctly) states were left to handle things locally there is much information and context lost by averaging all states together.

 

Is there any hard data on vaccine efficacy yet?

 

1) In the non-human animal world, there is usually not the luxury of cleanliness and hygiene. When having to spend most of the day to just get food, there is not much time for anything else. The only reason humans have that luxury is because we have found ways to harness energy sources other than food.

2) What you are describing is not evidence for rational behavior, but rather for humans being a social species. Dogs are social species too. Sometimes, I feel that my dog shows more compassion to me than my fellow humans.

Mind you, I am not trying to disparage humans as a species. I just don't think we deserve the pedestal as the crown jewel of creation that we have built for ourselves.

 

Unfortunately, because of the selfishness you explained as well as the political nonsense associated with this virus, the country is circling the drain. We can't trust that people will make the right decisions. With freedom comes responsibility - but there are large numbers not willing to acknowledge that responsibility. So are we to just carry on HOPING that people will do the right thing? It hasn't worked so far - so why do we think it will get us out of this hole?

I don't believe in an authoritarian government either - but when the citizens are not doing what is necessary, someone has to be looking out for the whole.

 

All the more reason for an animal not to defile it’s food if it was rational. If such behavior was based on energy sources and not rational behavior, the human would be more likely to defile it’s food source because the human would be more able to avoid scarcity and deal with negative health consequences. The animal should be more careful than the human but isn’t because it isn’t rational in its thought process.

Your dog would not show compassion to another dog it has never seen. Especially if the other dog was disagreeable and personal space and resources of your dog were being challenged.

I certainly agree we are controlled by basal instincts to a degree we don’t like to admit. And some of those instincts are ugly indeed.

And I’m not trying to say animals are stupid/simple creatures and humans are great either. I’m with you on dogs often being more enjoyable to be around than people. But as a species we certainly are a level above other animals in rationality, reasoning, and “morality” for lack of better terminology.

 

What about educating people on doing the right thing instead of spending years mocking those who believed it wise to be prepared for this? What about advocating for personal responsibility in all areas of life instead of promoting selfish self gratifying behavior in everything from formal education to commercial advertising? People are acting how they have been conditioned to act. You wouldn’t feed your young child a steady diet Cocoa Puffs, twinkies, and soft drinks until they are 17 years old. They are then fat, out of shape, and their permanent teeth are wrecked. You say “this kid isn’t responsible” and then try and force feed him canned spinach on a treadmill.

Your argument for authority is essentially the above. The government was implicit in creating the behavior you dislike in relation to C19. And now you call for that same entity to force you to do what they incentivized you not to do in the first place. And on top of that, those who did the right thing in the face of disincentive and derision are told they must accept authority as well.

I’m confused as to why you trust government to do the right things on your behalf at this point. Realistically, what do you want government to do? Do you want them to mandate a full stay at home lockdown the public isn’t prepared for and the government can’t provide resources for either? Do you want nationwide mask mandates that would be unenforceable in 3/4 of the country without deadly force (and even then not completely enforceable)? What exactly do you want government forcing us to do that we won’t do otherwise? What happens if we give the federal government the power to dictate to the people of every state and the guy making the calls is worse than Trump?

Then you had best start dissolving the Union of States and figure out a way to get all those former states to submit to a central authority. Will they all submit to Trump? No. Will they all submit to Biden? Nope. An attempt to centrally control the entire country and erode personal freedom to the point a pandemic could forcefully be stopped would result in more death and suffering than this virus will cause.