Visited my local gun shop today...

Those of us who go through the time and trouble of maintaining a crime-free life are not the ones who cause the problems. But this debate has been going on for about as long as guns have existed. Minnesota is a good test case. In 2003, the state passed the Personal Protection Act which essentially transformed it from a "may issue" state to a "shall issue" state, virtually guaranteeing that any law-abiding adult citizen who can pass the background check will be issued a CHL. The anti-gun forces were predicting rampant crime and shootouts at noon on Hennepin Ave. in downtown Minneapolis. Interestingly, the homicide rate stayed pretty much the same, actually dropping a few points. In the 12 years BEFORE the 2003 law, homicides averaged ~ 140/yr. In the 12 years after the change which made it easier to legally carry a gun, homicides averaged ~ 104/year. That's about a 24% drop. Looking at the chart below you can see the overall trend is down. (Source: http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/mncrime.htm )

Every red bar indicates more homicides than 2003 when the law was cahnged, while every green bar indicates fewer.

​

Now, to be clear, I am not attributing the drop in homicides to more law-abiding carriers, only illustrating that making guns easier to legally carry did not inflict the mass carnage that the late Paul Wellstone and his cadre predicted. Also keep in mind these are raw figures, not ratios -- as the population of the state as increased from 4.3 m to 5.5 m during this time, the numbers would even be better and the blue trendline steeper if we looked at something like homicides per 100,000.

 

Indeed.

This country has more guns than ever and our murder levels are now what they were in 1940.

 

Here's a good guy with a gun...



Here's a bad guy with a gun...



Glad I could clear that up for you.

 

Please cite your statistics.

 

We've already covered this.

 

finding an exception does not establish a rule besides you made no claims that I doubt so I don't see a need to read your links.

gun-free zone does not mean no armed guards it means that civilians cannot have their guns there. So therefore civilians aren't protected because it is not the guards duty to protect civilians.

I don't need to see another example with 98% of these mass shootings occur in gun-free zones that is not a coincidence. And as I established a gun-free zone does not mean an area where there are no guns it means an area where civilians are not allowed to carry guns.

 

if people can flee there is no one to shoot

oh so you do believe it's other people's responsibility to protect you? Well if we book at the Parkland shooting and the YouTube HQ shooting the people are charged with protecting did nothing. They couldn't even be bothered to get off their sorry asses and do their job so if that's what you're relying on I think you're quite foolish.

It is instinctual to have a fight or flight response. Some people default to flight other people default to fight it would be a good idea for you to be able to use both options if you had to. Taking one that away makes no sense whatsoever.

 

No because personnel that are paid to guard aren't there to protect your life. They only have the gun to protect their lives and if you think otherwise you are diluted.

I have worked both as an armed guard and a police officer. The only reason I had a gun was to defend my life. That's what we were told at Academy.

This should be a news flash for you armed Personnel are not adequate. Defense must be a personal priority.

 

A little off topic but the recent anti gun rhetoric and sentiment is just another calculated increment in the over all plan to disarm America. When I say calculated I mean it's on for sure and they're all in. First let me say that the second amendment is the only legitimate law regarding firearms everything else is politically driven restrictions. If you look at the evolution of gun control over the last hundred years you'll see that it has become more restrictive with each passing year. It's the frog in the pot and except for a few red flags now and then it's gone mostly unnoticed until now. I live in Massachusetts and the restrictions here are beyond ridiculous and probably unconstitutional. I used to go to all of the large gun shows in New England. Most took five to eight hours to browse and another hour to make purchases plus some had a bonus ammo tent. The ammo tent featured a lot of bargains and no limits to what you could buy. The few surviving shows take no more than two hours to browse and make purchases and the ammo tents are history. That increment occurred in less than a decade. I hate to say it but they're presently winning and that in itself is a precedent for their future litigations. If we don't do something huge to make up for lost ground we could lose everything. This means advocating for more conservative federal judges, supporting the president's picks for SCOTUS, (hopefully this will be soon and hopefully 2+) and last of all got to get out and vote come November.

 

I love Texas. I can walk into any gun store or gun show and walk out 5 minutes later with a new gun. With my LTC, I skip all background checks and only have to fill out the 4473.

 

AZ is like that too. Great 2nd Amendment states!

 

And you could say the same for every mass shooting

Seems the perp is focussed on his victims and does not consider if there are other guns or not

 

Yes but that is also true of mass shooters. Terrorists and black market arms dealers

 

So the policeman at parklands was just doing what he should

 

Thank you for confirming that the nra has been spewing bull about the mythical good guy with a gun

 

No they went to the shooter's house over two dozen times and even the FBI knew about him. They were incredibly inept same with the YouTube shooter. If they did their jobs these things wouldn't happened

 

Well there are no good guys with guns responsible gun owners and there's criminals responsible gun owners stop criminals a responsible gun owner could be police officer a security officer a person with the military or an ordinary citizen.

If the NRA has been saying that they've been spreading truth.

 

Its self prophesying, it proves it self everyday.

Kinda like abstinence.

Unless you feel every school fight would have turned out better had guns been involved

Nonfatal Student Victimization–Student Reports

Between 1992 and 2015, total victimization rates for students ages 12–18 generally declined both at school and away from school. The total victimization rate at school declined 82 percent, from 181 victimizations per 1,000 students in 1992 to 33 victimizations per 1,000 students in 2015. The total victimization rate away from school declined 88 percent, from 173 victimizations per 1,000 students in 1992 to 21 victimizations per 1,000 students in 2015.

The rate of serious violent victimization3 against students ages 12–18 was lower at school than away from school in most survey years between 1992 and 2008. Between 2009 and 2015, the rate at school was not measurably different from the rate away from school. The 2015 serious violent victimization rate for students ages 12–18 did not differ measurably from the 2014 rate either at school or away from school. In 2015, students experienced about 4 serious violent victimizations per 1,000 students at school and 4 serious violent victimizations per 1,000 students away from school.

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=49

 

The people were disarmed. He’s talking about government with guns. They were failing to protect a disarmed public. Afraid to approach the shooter.

 

My observation is that gun stores get robbed occasionally, but only after hours, and usually by applying the force of an internal combustion engine.

 

No, they're not all the same.

Some go for a specific target, like police officers. They're not trying to kill as many random people as possible, they're trying to kill as many of their target as possible.

Some go for body count against defenseless targets.

That's why the Australia shooting was so successful. He was the only guy on the entire island with a firearm just walking around shooting defenseless people for over an hour.

 

???????
I think you have lost the thread of the conversation

 

He was talking about the Florida school and YouTube shootings where police with guns let the shooting run it’s course before cleaning up the mess, unless I quoted the wrong posts.

 

As expected - you cannot prove your statement true.
Thanks.

 

...I did, and so does history.

You ok?