Who's behind Trump's big polling deficit? Two key groups defecting to Biden

Nice informed post but I am won't be in the least surprised if you get one of the predictable trolling responses that have littered this thread already.

The member in question is NOT interested in the facts and has no intention of engaging in substantive discussion or debate about HCQ and Covid19.

 

I try my best to gently introduce the real science that would counter misinformation, but I understand that it is an uphill battle because this issue unfortunately got so politicized that it has generated ingrained and unshakable beliefs.

I mean, the FDA often issues similar recommendations for literally thousands of medications and diseases; that's precisely the FDA's "job description", that's what they do and are supposed to do: look at the best evidence (of which, randomized controlled trials are considered to be #1 in what we call "categories of strength of evidence" (while some retrospective non-randomized observational studies that have suggested efficacy of HCQ are category #6, and the opinion of doctors is category #7, dead last, since it is often unsubstantiated) and rule if the risks of a drug outweigh or are outweighed by the benefits for a proposed indication.

The FDA does it for virtually ALL drugs in the US Pharmacopeia, and you don't hear a peep from politicians, TV or radio pundits, journalists, and the general non-medical public. Now, when they did the same thing (that is, what they're supposed to do in order to protect public health) for HCQ, suddenly they are supposed to be members of a vast conspiracy to bring down certain politicians.

It's a shame. People need to allow the medical scientists to do their work, and the FDA to do its work, and trust the FDA in doing what they've been doing very well for decades, that is, to impartially look at the best possible evidence and impartially rule on the indication or contra-indication of specific drugs for specific diseases.

Nobody is perfect but the FDA rarely misfires. It is simply the most respected agency in the world in matters of drug efficacy and safety. Its ruling on HCQ for COVID-19 is unequivocal, final, uncontroversial, and authoritative, as it's been done after careful analysis of the best available science. That some people (including many doctors) are unwilling to accept it, is mind-boggling to me, although I understand the causes of the mistrust (which are not valid, but I can see how people got to have such fixed beliefs that can't be defied by sound data).

 

I can appreciate that. Having raised 5 kids in Los Angeles, my experience is that not one teacher/professor encouraged free thought. One of my sons teachers told the class that anyone not voting for Obama, just didn't have a brain. I had to explain that those with a brain don't let others tell them who to vote for.

BTW, the non-union charter schools did not permit teachers to push politics.

 

I have made my position clear.

If you reallly need to be told what a flu like symptom is, then i think you are trolling.

The objectively reality is, that HCQ has decades of science backing it as an effective medicine used to treat flu like symptoms and that is exactly why its being used even today, as we speak, to treat them for people effected with covid. This will continue to occur despite the irrational attacks on it.

I never claimed it was a cure, nor that the covid is the flu, however if you dont think it has flu like symptoms then you really need to better inform yourself. That is not my job to make you be informed, do it yourself.

Again, if you dont think it works then you really arent paying attention. You can be as verbose in your posts as you want, but that doesnt make you correct. The objective reality is, flu like symptoms are common in covid and they often kill. HCQ DOES work to treat those symptoms, saving lives. There are studies proving this, decades worth plus doctors are literally using it right now.

I appreciate the respectful post, but you are very uninformed on this issue despite your attempt to portray otherwise. A medicine doesn’t have to be a cure in order to be an effective treatment.

@CenterField

 

The reality is i am far more interested in facts than yourself. If you were at all interested in them you would know i am correct. You would take the road to finding out more for yourself instead of demanding others do it for you. The reality is, you hate Trump so much that you are willing to attack an effective treatment for flu like symptoms that is saving lives as we speak across the globe for people who have covid.

It’s pretty disgusting tbh.

 

yes people do need to allow the doctors and scientists to do their work.

Yet the left is constantly attacking this medicine despite its effectiveness.

Decades of science proving it.

Doctors using it now with great results

If people need to just let them do their work as you say, then do so. And as of right now, they are using HCQ with great effect on those effected by covid, by treating their flu like symptoms.

 

I don't consider helping someone register to vote as pushing politics. There were no mention of political opinions, and no students were singled out or ignored. Any student who wanted to be registered, got registered. Introducing students to the basic mechanisms of government isn't pushing politics. If it were, we wouldn't even be able to have a Civics class, and trust me, we need a Civics class!

I've noticed bias is the classroom in both directions. I saw a history teacher once ask a Muslim student right in front of the whole class what was wrong with his religion. He actually stopped lecturing for a moment like he expected an answer. I've seen a lot of the typical liberal bias, too, and a lot of people just talking so much false info regarding politics and how our government works.

 

Thanks, Moolk, but it seems like you've misunderstood one aspect of my post. I was not implying that COVID-19 doesn't have flu-like symptoms, although I understand why what I said gives this impression since I asked you what do you mean by that. I gave the analogy with two kinds of pneumonias having the same symptoms but being different diseases with agents that respond to different treatments.

Sure, COVID-19 has flu-like symptoms (although not exclusively; more on this, soon). Certainly the Flu and COVID-19 share symptoms such as fever, body aches, fatigue, upper and lower respiratory congestion, and even down to a viral pneumonia. But they are still caused by different agents, and HCQ helping flu-like symptoms caused by other agents, doesn't mean that HCQ will also help with flu-like symptoms caused by the SARS-CoV-2. That was my point, not one of negating the flu-like symptoms.

COVID-19 also has many non-flu-like symptoms that are very specific of it and we don't see in the case of the flu: the endothelial lesions (the inner layer of blood vessels) everywhere in the body including the brain, the liver, the heart, and the kidneys, causing in most critical patients, neurocognitive issues, liver enzyme elevation, myocarditis, renal insufficiency, strokes, pulmonary embolism, cytokine storm, and intravascular disseminated coagulation, all aspects of this nasty COVID-19 disease that you don't usually see with the flu.

Remember the case of that Broadway actor and singer, Nick Cordero, 41 years old, who died after battling COVID-19 for 13 weeks? He had one leg amputated due to a blood clot, needed a pacemaker for his heart, dialysis for his renal insufficiency, and ultimately didn't resist. Good luck finding a case like that stemming exclusively from the influenza virus.

This is just to say that these two diseases are vastly different although they share some symptoms, and treatments that help one may not help the other.

It's not the symptoms that we aim at treating. We aim at inhibiting the agent. It's OK to just treat symptoms for something benign as the common cold, for example, but not OK to just treat symptoms for something nasty and dangerous like COVID-19.

And sure, treatments don't need to cure to help; if they dampen the severity of the disease (like remdesivir does at a rate of 30%) that can be of great help. Unfortunately the data show that HCQ doesn't even do that.

From my part I'm not engaged in any irrational attack on it. I would be delighted if it worked. My opinion on this comes exclusively from the results of large randomized controlled trials. I have no vested political interest in saying what I'm saying. On this topic, I'm more interested in the science than in politics. I'd be willing to look at your evidence, though, if you kindly link us to the studies you say support your opinion. Cheers.

 

No I did not misunderstand any of your post, however your analogies are useless here. The reality is it does have flu like symptoms, and while those flu like symptoms are certainly not the only type of symptoms that it has they do exist. If they exist and often times kill as we know they do they need to be treated. Doctors have any number of ways to do all of this, however one of the ways that it’s been chosen is HCQ. It has been chosen because it is an effective tool in a doctors toolkit regardless of these irrational attacks on it. There are decades worth of science here and there’s nothing that you have said or will say that will disapprove this because the objective fact remains that for decades it has been around being used for far more than just malaria. The left seems to think that it is only used for malaria which is complete nonsense they believe that because that’s what the main stream media told them. The reality is there is no end likely will never be any cure because for the same reason as the flu. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t effective treatments to less than some of the symptoms that end up killing people. Hcq helps with that and it does so at very little risk.

With some amount of risk comes with every medicine, the one with HCQ is very low. I never said it was the flu, heck it’s likely had a lower kill rate despite over all higher numbers than the flu. But nonetheless you are making a lot of assumption about my argument that I didn’t make. I didn’t say it was the flu, or that flu like symptoms were the only symptoms.

Also the idea that you don’t think we aim at treating symptoms at all shows you literally know nothing of what you’re talking about. It is the symptoms that often times kill the patient, so treating those symptoms absolutely helps. I’m looking to treat only one symptom or only the root cause they treat everything. I’m shocked you would even stay otherwise.

 

Well, I'm not "the Left." I'm a centrist, moderate, unaffiliated, independent voter. Once you get to know me better if we keep talking about other topics, you'll see that I harbor many conservative positions (although I also do harbor some progressive ones; I figure that one set of opinions counter-balances the others, making of me a centrist).

The problem with "doctors using it now with great results" is how to control for the alternative of not using it, because as you know, 99% of people with COVID-19 do recover and only about 1% die, so the "great results" have a 99% probability of happening even without the medication, which is why you need RCTs to sort it out.

 

The post I was replying to suggested "making sure your friends vote".

My kids are political orphans like me. No party represents our views. We support gun rights for gay married couples!

 

I do not care nor was I assuming what your political position is I was accurately pointing out that it is the left typically attacking this medicine simply because they hate Trump. But the reality is we have had decades proving this medicine works for these symptoms. You don’t have to like it, or believe it, but it is working.

Also I suggest you do some more research or perhaps even talk to nurses and doctors because your idea that they are not there to treat the symptoms is quite nonsensical, They hit these from all angles, these viruses, from the root cause all the way to the mildest of symptoms.

 

Please do not engage @Moolk on this subject any further - or at least do not do so in this thread. He will never change his mind and he continues to repeat the exact same talking points while wholly refusing to provide any citation beyond that the notion that "he is objectively correct."

Moreover, the topic of whether HCQ works for Covid-19 is not relevant to the topic of this thread.

 

I will not change my mind, because I am not wrong. The science backs me up on this regardless of your acceptance of that or not.

That being said, you engaged on this topic as well, in this thread. Try being consistent.

 

OK, then, fair enough, maybe I misunderstood you too.

I didn't say we don't aim at treating symptoms "at all." In Medicine there is what we call "symptomatic treatments" which are treatments that only treat a symptom but not its root cause, such as Tylenol for a fever caused by a bacterial infection, which treats the symptom fever but doesn't treat the bacteria; you need to add an antibiotic for that. What I'm saying is that if HCQ only helped with flu-like symptoms like runny nose and congestion, it wouldn't help that much for COVID-19. If you are talking about the viral pneumonia that both diseases can cause, well, that's already moving into severe disease and all studies have been showing that HCQ is ineffective for severe disease. There remains a possibility that it might be effective for mild disease when given with Zinc and this hasn't been sufficiently explored yet. But certainly for severe disease, it's not good.

I never implied that HCQ is onlyl for malaria. It has two other approved FDA indications: lupus and rheumatoid arthritis.

About fatality rates in higher proportion than the flu: it doesn't look this way. The best estimate as of now is an infection fatality rate of 0.65% and a case-fatality rate of 3% to 4% depending on the country (which only applies to confirmed cases; this is influenced by medical infrastructure and access to care, of course). The estimated infection fatality rate is therefore six and a half times higher than that of the flu, which sits at 0.1%. The infection fatality rate is estimated, because to know the correct rate we'd need to know precisely how many people are infected, which we don't, but it is for various reasons an educated guess.

 

The right supports gun rights for gay married couples as well, despite what the left will tell you.

 

Yes, you did.

Also, no way do you actually think that treating symptoms for covid wouldn’t help that much lol. OFCOURSE it would. it’s the symptoms that are killing people so often. Treating those symptoms is absolutely necessary, and its the flu like symptoms getting so bad at times its killing, not exclusively, but it IS happening. ANd HCQ treats them, making it an effective tool in the toolkit of doctors who need to treat these symptoms.

I never said you did imply it was only for malaria, however many do think that and that is exactly what i accurately pointed out.

I appreciate your respectful tone, but you are as wrong on so many important points its astounding you are not instead spending yourself learning about what you are speaking on.

I didnt say they came in higher proportion, in fact i said Covid kill RATE seems like it could very well be less than the flu. But over all higher than the flu. That is accurate as well.

 

Oops, I had to scroll up to verify what's the topic of the thread, LOL, and indeed it doesn't match. Sorry for that. I don't intend to hijack a thread, I was responding by clicking on the "alerts" on the top right corner, and seeing who quoted me and responding; I think it's polite to give to people who quote you, a response too. When you click on one of the "alerts" it takes you directly to the person's response and I'm guilty of carrying on without looking at the thread title.

OK, then, I'll stop. Cheers.

 

The right strongly opposed gay marriage.

 

At one point thats very true.

That is no longer the case.

Hell that was the case for the left as well, although not as recently.

The parties have changed drastically in just 20 years.

 

It wasn't that long ago, but I do realize they softened their stance since then. BTW, My gay, liberal friends are buying guns now!

 

Good, now more than ever people need them. The world is getting worse currently, not better. Hate is more prevalent than ever.

 

We need to treat the symptoms by inhibiting the virus too and dampening the cytokine storm with steroids (methylprednisolone or dexamethasone), and stopping the blood clots with enoxaparin; not just look at flu-like symptoms. Like I said this disease is vastly more complicated than the flu. Treatment is very comprehensive and multi-phasic, with multiple medications (HCQ not part of it).

You can consult the full treatment protocol here:

https://www.evms.edu/media/evms_pub...cine/EVMS_Critical_Care_COVID-19_Protocol.pdf

A rate is a proportion. COVID-19's BOTH absolute number of deaths, AND case-fatality rate, are higher than what you typically see in the usual flu season (which exceptions such as the H1N1 of 1918-19). It's very unlikely that when it's all said and done, we'll find that the infection fatality rate is lower than the flu's. You are right in the fact that it is still possible that we're under-diagnosing more than we think we are, so, that would lower the rate, but still, the way things are going, I'd say that the odds that the final rate will be lower than the flu's are infinitesimal.

This said, apparently we're off-topic here and people complained, so let's just agree to disagree. For this reason only, this will be the last post I reply to you here, in this thread. Have a nice day.

 

I never claimed we only needed to stop some symptoms. But there ARE flu like symptoms, and HCQ DOES treat those symptoms safely. This is an objective fact. Yes, there are other symptoms and root causes that need to be treated but that doesn’t remove the objective fact that there are flu like symptoms and HCQ treats them, which ultimately serves the cause of saving lives. So HCQ is an effective tool in the toolkit.

I dont care if you like this or not, it remains true regardless. It doesn’t matter if it is more complicated than the flu, the reality is it still has very similar symptoms in many cases and they need to be treated because they are killing people. HCQ does that very well, decades of science supports that.

WRONG, we KNOW for an objective FACT that it spreads far quicker than the flu and many people are asymptomatic. So as I said, it is VERY likely it has far less of a rate of death than the flu.

The person complaining about off topic is just as guilty. And there really is no agreeing to disagree. You are wrong, i dont care if you like that or not.

 

I have no problem being wrong. I'm not that narcissistic; when I see that I'm wrong I usually say "oops, I stand corrected, thanks for pointing it out." In this, I think I'm right, and it's unlikely we'll convince each other, which is why I said we should agree to disagree. Fine, you don't even want that; do as you please. From my end, I'm over and out. Cheers.