Why Hamas attacked Israel on Oct 7?

NO. Israel has absolutely NOT agreed in ANY WAY that the war would stop if Hamas releases hostages.

The war has gone on for 20 years without those hostages.

During that time, Israel has run Gaza as a concentration camp. Even just Israel's blockade of Gaza IS WAR by international definition. One doesn't have to go into the particulars of Israel's actions against the people of Gaza.

Even today, there is NO indication that Israel will ever stop its war on Gaza. Ever. The Zionist plan doesn't stop because Hamas returns some hostages. That is two freaking silly for words.

AND, there is no indication that Israel will be pressured to do so by the USA who has supported this war on Gaza for DECADES.


(Your "poll" is also total nonsense.)

 

From the article you quoted:

"However the old charter was not explicitly revoked"

Nor does Hamas renounce its positions on jihad and Israel being an Islamic waqf in the 2017 document:

Hamas in 2017: The document in full
Hamas explains general principles and objectives in 42-article document
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full

What I do see is that Hamas is being more careful with its language so it can better dupe credulous Westerners, et al. In other words, they're dissembling, or what one might call taqiyya or kitmān:

Taqiyya
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya

 

"IF HAMAS SURRENDERS AND releases the hostages." Yes. Absolutely.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...end-war-in-gaza-with-total-surrender-of-hamas
"We have to have the total surrender of Hamas, we have to have our hostages back,” Nir Barkat, Israel’s economy and industry minister, said in an interview with Bloomberg Television on Monday. “Hamas has to raise a white flag.”

"polls are nonsense"? Good to know you are arguing on emotion and not facts.

 

Sorry guy - Israel has been making war on Gaza for 20 YEARS.

Our OWN documents allow the US to fight those who attack us. And, so does the UN charter.

In this world, countries that are attacked have a legitimate right to fight back.

Israel's Zionist goal is the elimination of Palestine entirely, with its millions of people driven out.

Yet, they want to think this isn't genocide!!!

Simply trying to misconstrue their charter or redirect to old charters is NOT and excuse for genocide.

 

Oh good LORD!!

Do you see anything in that to make you believe that if hostages are returned, Gaza can live in peace as a part of Palestine, trading in world commerce, fishing its own waters, traveling as they choose, reopening their airport (closed by Israel), or otherwise operating as free people?

Netanyahu has specifically stated that is NOT THE CASE. And, why would it be, given that the status before the hostages was Israel making war on Gaza for 20 years??? Don't be silly.

And, yes, THAT poll of yours is of very little value. First, Palestine has stated that they WANT A TWO STATE SOLUTION, NOT the end of Israel.

The very premise of the poll raises questions concerning what is meant.

Nobody thinks Israel will retract to the 1967 borders. The poll says nothing about the legal status of West Bank Israeli settlements or other serious questions. So, what is REALLY being asked?

 

Yes. I do.

Gaza was not under this assault before the dumbass actions of Oct 7th. There was a cease fire.

Gaza will need to give Israel assurances after this is all over that Oct 7th won't happen again. And that may mean more idf presence in Gaza this time around.

Can't blame them however. Gaza was given self determination in 2005 and they used that freedom to agress on to Israel.

 

And the Arabs have been making war on Israel since 1948, just as the Muslims and Jews in the region have been fighting over that shithole for centuries. I'm familiar with the history going back to the Rashidun caliphs' invasions of the Byzantine Levant in the 630s AD. It's not a pretty one.

However, that doesn't change what Hamas is - a genocidal Islamist group - and what it stands for - the destruction of Israel and its people.

I'm an American and I have no control over Hamas. They will fight until they destroy Israel or are destroyed themselves.

Is it now, and what about the so-called "liberal Zionists" who support a two-state solution, hmm?

Non sequitur. Straw man.

The only person who is attempting to misconstrue Hamas' charters is you - why is that? - and I've always supported a two-state solution to that conflict and still do.

 

A cease fire does not mean the war didn't continue to be in progress.

The simple fact is that Gaza has been barricaded by Israel for 20 years, and that is war by international definition.

The cease fire ONLY means that there isn't active shooting and bombing going on. It doesn't mean there isn't war. There isn't even an adequate possibility of feeding the citizens.

As you point out, there is absolutely NO agreement on ending the war.

Again, your final statement is garbage, because the primary acts of war have had to do with Israel blockading Gaza and starving the people.

Israel has not even allowed Gaza to EXPORT. Plus, the international waters of Palestine are suspected to have significant petrochemical value, and Israel blocks Gaza for investigating it's potential off shore wealth - as well as preventing fishing in its waters.

 

The government of Gaza supports a two state solution as promoted by Palestinian President Abbas. You nonsense about that being genocide shows serious failure of your understanding. In point of fact, this has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the various empires, crusades, etc. That absurdity is absent from other border disagreements as well.

You Zionist interpretation is designed for the sole purpose of continuing the genocide.

Yes, not all Israelis are genocidal Zionists. Just like not all Americans are in favor of the US support of that genocide.

Nothing you've said supports a two state solution. You can't have a two state solution after genocide. Plus, I think you are ignoring West Bank, where the USA continues to support the bulldozing of Palestinian homes and rules with Israeli military law. Today, it is Netanyahu who has stated within his own chambers, "From the river to the sea."

As long as our support continues to be one of protecting and arming the Israeli genocide, there will be no two state solution.

Why would Israel allow that to happen if they can simply take Gaza and West Bank, killing or driving out the Palestinian people???

 

I can understand viewing revenge as a motive. But, I don't agree with that as being a significant driver.

One must also consider that Gaza has absolutely NO voice. There has been no way forward for them, as they struggle with the war waged by Israel, which mostly involves blockade and control rather than bombs. So, for 20 years they've faced that devastating force.

Plus, the USA has backed this direction by Israel, protecting Israel in the UN, etc., and supplying them with the power needed to run Gaza as a concentration camp. We explicitly assure no way out for Gaza.

When was the last time before Oct 7 that anyone bothered discussing the Israeli genocide? Surely one would have to go back to the last previous significant Palestinian attack.

 

Israel has been warring on Gaza continuously for over 20 years.

The blockade is universally recognized as an act of war. The blockade of Gaza is devastating. It means they have no economy, they can't even export. It means that 60% of the population is food insecure. It means their hospitals are poorly equipped. It means that water, power, sewer, and electricity are intermittent. It means they can't fish their own waters. It means that their airport is shut down by Israeli edict. It means that travel is disallowed - for education or any other purpose. It means the average age in Gaza is 19!!

That is a constant and devastating Israeli war on Gaza - BEFORE the full power of Israeli bombs and tanks are considered.

 

This is about Palestine.

It is NOT about Arabs as a whole. It is NOT about Islam.

 

"warring" by allowing them to retake the gaza while displacing the jewish farmers who lived there?

"warring" them by honor the cease fire and not retaliating with a heavy hand when up to 3000 rockets are launched into Israel proper year after year?

"warring" by allowing Palestinians to work in Israel? Where anyone from Israel would get MURDERED if they worked in Gaza?

Gaza has been given BILLIONS in aid to build up their infrastructure and the *******s living large in Qatar who are in charge of Hamas live large? Maybe if the Palestinians stopped fighting a war they have no way of fighting and actually focused on trade and relations and building up their society, they wouldn't be up ****'s creek right now.

Anyone with half a brain would have known that all Oct 7th was going to accomplish was the devastation of the Gaza strip. Palestinians can't win this fight. They shouldn't have picked it.

Know what's gonna result in all this? Dead Palestinians and more Israel oversight to make sure Hamas doesn't get a foothold again in Gaza. That's what is gonna be the end result.

 

Really?

Yes. Of course that is the POLITICAL motivation. But not the motivation to kill innocent civilians and kill children.

However, that is a valid point. My main point is that it's not religious. But revenge is most definitely a recruiting tool used by the terrorists. I think it is a major driver of the excessive violence.

Very true.

 

Wrong! US supports Israel because Israel serves American interesses in the region. As matter of fact Israel complains that US does not allowed to it to get harder on Hamas, for example to stop all humanitarian help to Gaza until Hamas returns all kidnap hostages.
And the are some facts people forget:
Hamas knew Israel will respond very strong after Oct 7 attack.
Hamas knew they can hide from these attacks in underground tunnels which civilian population cannot enter.
Hamas hides arms, ammunitions and entry to underground tunnels in civilian buildings, knowing that Israel will bomb them.
From 2007 Hamas was the sole ruler of Gaza and got billions of dollars to help civilian population. Hamas decided that people of Gaza don't want improvements in education, infrastructure, water treatment or medicine, Gaza people want arms, ammunition, underground tunnels and missiles. And Gaza people got exactly what they hoped for.
Israel warned civilian population which are it will bomb, and Hamas tried to prevent civilian population from abending these areas.
Why Hamas did it and promised to do it again? Probably because it is what Gaza people want.

 

Thanks! I think I misunderstood your post to some extent.

 

This is a far longer war than simply Oct 7.

Israel has been waging war on Gaza for decades.

And, the USA has helped by giving Israel political protection internationally and by delivering dollars and weapons so that Israel can do what they do.

I think you are forgetting that Gaza was blockaded during that period. Suggesting they were free to import medicine, food, building materials and equipment is nonsense. More than half of Gaza's citizens have been food insecure. They have had the right to EXPORT denied. They have been blocked by Israeli military froim fishing their own national waters.

And, yes. From time to time, Gaza tries to fight back.

 

As usual I disagree with you - motivation to kill everyone including civilians is certain religion, not only in the Middle East but also in Europe, Asia and Africa.
Boko Haram kills civilians in Africa, also kidnaps children, and their religion is...you guess.
Uighurs Muslims in China killed with knives about 20 civilians in (if I remember correctly on train station), and their religion is...you guess.
ISIS killed tons of civilians and their religion is... you guess.
Plenty of Hamas members exploded themself in Israeli buses and restaurants, and their religion is...you guess.
And what parents of suicide bombers did? Made huge celebration that their son went straight to the heaven.
And what Hamas members shouted while shooting Israeli civilians? Jesus is great? Yahve is great? Buddha is Great? Zeus is great?

And here one example:

 

Why are terrorist organizations "already there"?

Your theory doesn't explain lone terrorists. It also doesn't explain why terrorist organizations exist in the first place.

How does your theory explain this:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-11545509

You're arguing against something I've never said.

Your argument is based on several unproven premises. You can't possibly know what I think about religion and religious motivations. You didn't provide citations to support your assertions about ancient religions. You didn't provide testimonies of terrorists proving your claim about their motivations. You didn't define "REAL" - the reality is not of one kind, you know.

Also, you completely ignore the role of social, cultural, and other non-religious components of the society you're talking about. You just assume that the members of that society act in a certain way. You imply that all the people, all over the world, react in the same way, regardless of personal and social circumstances.

This leads to the very important questions that might help solve this conundrum: what makes people behave in a certain way? Furthermore, what makes different people react differently in the same circumstances?

 

True, but it's not just a matter of simple equivalence. Justifying terrorists' actions as a normal reaction to wrongs is a deceiving, abhorrent tactic meant to present the victims as villains who got what they deserved.

 

The government of Gaza is Hamas, a genocidal Islamist organization, and Hamas supports the destruction of Israel and its people, I.e., genocide.

Abbas - or is it Abu Mazen? - is the chairman of the PLO and president of the PNA. He wields no power in Hamas-controlled Gaza, but I’m sure he’d be just as happy to see the destruction of Israel and its people as Hamas.

I understand Hamas and its genocidal goals full well - they’ve made them explicitly clear in their charters and by their actions - and if you support Hamas you support genocide. There is no ambiguity here.

As for “points of fact”, I’m amused that you would even attempt to contend that History has nothing to do with this conflict, particularly the inconvenient part about the Muslim conquests. History has everything to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Your dissembling is designed for the sole purpose of shielding your genocidal Islamist heroes in Hamas from criticism, and you’re just parroting their rhetoric with that “Zionist” interpretation bullshit. As I pointed out earlier, they are quite open about their genocidal aspirations - there is nothing to “interpret”. All one has to do is take their word for it, and clearly they mean what they say. They’re a genocidal Islamist group that seeks the destruction of Israel and its people, I.e., genocide.

Since October 7th, it’s been quite the spectacle watching the Leftists in this country go to bat for a genocidal Islamist group, but Leftists and Islamists are two peas in the totalitarian pod. They’ve made common cause with Islamists in the past, they’re making common cause with them now and it’s a sure bet they’ll do it again in the future.

Bullshit. I’ve made my support for a two-state solution clear and I stand by that position. You, on the other hand, have been carrying water for a genocidal Islamist group that wants its own state solution "From the river to the sea”.

Furthermore, I haven’t ignored what’s happening in the West Bank and I don’t support the right wing radicals in Israel who want a one-state solution of their own.

There is no Israeli genocide. Once again, you are parroting the propaganda of a genocidal Islamist group in the hopes that Israel won’t and can’t exercise its right to defend itself against the perpetrators of the October 7th massacre that started this latest round of warfare, and obviously Hamas doesn’t give a damn about human life, be it Israeli or Palestinian.

Presumably, the same reason why the Israelis haven't glassed Gaza even though Hamas threw the Geneva Conventions out the window on October 7th - they’re not interested in killing and driving out the Palestinian people.

So don’t cry for your genocidal heroes in Hamas. They want a jihad and a jihad is what they got, and never forget the Ikhwan’s creed:

Allah is our objective, the Prophet is our leader, the Qur’an is our constitution, jihad is our way, dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope.

Who are you to deprive them of that?

 

Indeed, and in doing so what the phony peaceniks in this country reveal about themselves is that they are full-on pro-war on the terrorists' side.

 

As per ususal your "research" is little more than leftist boiler plate unsupported by anything to do with this reality. You will cheerfully hammer anything into leftist cant and note part of the the Hamas charter is a nod to that self same leftist cant but their rationale which you choose to completely ignore is Islam as it is for Iran. You may not think much of religion but a hell of a lot of people world wide do. And your underlying assumption that they all have to be motivated by the same sorts things that motivated by the same sorts of feelings that motivate you is not only absurd but it is why the ideology of the left that has driven US foreign policy since WWII has been a colossal failure. It is also why Trump managed to bring peace of a sort to the Middle East and why under the firm of Blinken and Nod it has once again become a blood soaked morass.

 

All of the intellectualizing about Palestinian victimhood falls flat when we consider one fact. The attitudes that the main political arm of the Palestinian movement, Hamas, has toward the Jewish people is no different that the views of the Nazis. Hamas wants them dead, and the teach their children this from an early age.

So long has the Palestinians hold this view, there will be no solution. The Palestinians are radical fundamentalist Muslins, and it’s very telling that all of the Arab states want as little to do with them as possible.

 

Kast I checked America is half a globe away from the Middle east so not exactly in the region.