Why Hamas attacked Israel on Oct 7?

Which government of Gaza?
When?
What negotiations?


Link please.

 

Yes, it's not as if there if been chances for negotiation over the last two decades.

So, you have to go back to Bush, the last president who tried.

There is only one government of Gaza. President Abbas wanted to change that. He created his "unity government" which would govern all of Palestine.

It's foundational precepts included negotiation only - no violence. Free and open elections. No seats reserved for Hamas.

Hamas agreed.

Netanyahu hated the idea and worked to kill it. He WANTED Hamas to keep governing Gaza!

 

We are talking about Gaza. There is a war in Gaza. Abbas does not represent Gaza. Abbas does not represent Palestinians. Whatever he says and does is irrelevant.

 

Maybe to you.

 

It's not about me. It's about reality. Now.

"Palestine has stated that they WANT A TWO STATE SOLUTION, NOT the end of Israel."

It is 2024 and this is a fantasy.

 

@WillReadmore

Can you please explain how Palestinians bursting out of Gaza and raping & murdering Israelis on October 7th assisted their purported wish to have a two-state solution?

Thanks in advance.

 

I don't think you understand what "binary answer" means.

The PLO was founded in 1964. Netanyahu was a school student somewhere in Pennsylvania. Israel's PM was Levi Eshkol from the very leftist Workers' Party (Mapai).

You're saying that a group of people understand that terrorism works and decide to become terrorists. However, to understand that terrorism works, a previous terror organization must have existed to serve as an example for that group of people. Why does that previous terrorist organization exist?

No, your theory doesn't explain why some people become terrorists, while other people in similar circumstances don't become terrorists. Empirical data doesn't support your theory.

My post - my first post in this thread, the one you replied to - didn't mention religion at all.

You didn't even try to answer my questions. What makes people behave in a certain way? Furthermore, what makes different people react differently in the same circumstances?

 

I have no idea what you're asking or what when the PLO was founded has to do with any of this. The previous terrorist organization exists for the same reasons the current terrorist organization exists. Except that, now that I think about the PLO, each generation of terrorists appears to be more violent and ruthless than the previous. For example, you might see PLO kidnaping a billionaire's daughter and not kill her... Or you might see them hijacking planes. But not slam them into buildings. Which might mean that the old tactics that Netanyahu is repeating, are not only not working, but maybe making matters worse. But if you leave it at "not working" (don't waste time looking for terrorist attacks in the 60s or 70s), that should signal a change in tactics would be in order.

You keep thinking in binary by assuming that there can only be ONE reason for while people become terrorist. There are MANY. Revenge is one MAJOR motivator. Besides others like political indoctrination. Religion could be a factor... but a minor one. The OP of this thread lists it as the ONLY motive. And, to do that, the OP cherry-picks passages of religious writings that you might find in just about any ancient religion.

Then your post is off-topic.

Anybody who DOESN'T reason in binary like you do knows that the answer to that question would require a treatise in Psychology that would probably earn them a Nobel. I don't reason in binary. So if I DO one day decide to answer the question you will be able to get the answer at Barnes and Noble for $49.99 (let me know and I'll get you a discount coupon)

But what you demand is a binary answer like... Religion... or Not-religion.... or nanobots injected into the bloodstream through the Covid vaccine... Something like that, right? Sorry that reality might be more complicated than you would wish it to be....

 

There is an ongoing war between Israel and Palestine that has continued for decades.

I TOTALLY approve of the methods being used by President Abbas as he strives to find international support for a two state solution, even as Israel uses their force in continuing acts of humanitarian atrocity in West Bank region - the step wise destruction of his state.

It's amazingly inspirational to see him struggle for a negotiated solution. He has made progress in the UN and as shown by the fact that nearly 200 countries recognize Palestine as a state and have diplomatic relations with Palestine. However, the USA has worked to block his progress - a block that has been insurmountable.

Gaza is in a different position, as the average age of Gazans is less than the duration of Israel's barricade (an act of war that Gaza can not repulse) thus denying them adequate supplies of food, water, medicine, building materials, electricity, travel and commerce. Thus half have lived that period with food insecurity. They aren't even allowed to fish their waters.

Plus, Israel denies them past attempts to join West Bank government - an act of surrender by Hamas.

So, Gaza faces 20 years of Israel's war with no hope of conventional arms in repulsing the barricade, no opportunity to negotiate, no possibility of joining President Abbas (as Netanyahu will not allow it), and no expectation that a negotiated solution will ever happen, as they watch Abbas struggle against the combined forces of Israel and the USA.

Are you really shocked that this situation would birth a terrorist act? I don't know ANY people on Earth who wouldn't take action in a war such as Gaza faces. And, that includes the USA.

 

I don't think religion is the reason so much as an excuse for extreme measures. It's more about tribal warfare. Both groups have long claimed the land, and both seek to rid their land of the hated other. Hell, even the bible speaks of genocide as a justified means of claiming this land. The British had a hand in tipping the scales towards the Israelis last century, and the palestinians feel robbed. The Israelis have long treated the palestinians as less than human, and vice versa but the Israelis have been the ones with the power.

October 7th happened because Hamas is always striving to do something like that. Also likely is that the Israeli intelligence allowed it to happen to use it as a pretext for their ethnic cleansing goals. I can't help but marvel at the stupidity of the state of Israel as a solution to antisemitism in Europe. Both regimes are evil. Neither deserve our support.

 

"Allow me to elucidate why I believe religion, specifically Islam, played a significant role in the October 7th Hamas attack:

1. In recent times, Islam has been associated with attacks on civilians, not only in the Middle East but also in other parts of the world, unrelated to Jews or Israel. Here is a partial list of Islamist terrorist attacks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks
   
   
2. While Israelis have treated Palestinians in the West Bank harshly, Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2007, and since then, Palestinians in Gaza have been under Hamas rule. Israel has attempted to prevent Hamas from importing arms and materials used for military purposes, but Hamas has utilized donations (billions of dollars) to construct underground tunnels and arms factories, with only a small portion of funds allocated towards improving living standards in Gaza.
   
   
3. Hamas leaders have repeatedly stated that it is a Muslim duty to destroy Israel.
   
   
4. Numerous videos depict how Hamas indoctrinates small children to become religious martyrs.
   
   
5. There are also videos of Hamas terrorists shouting 'Allahu Akbar' while shooting at Israelis, echoing the same phrase heard when Muslims attack civilians in other parts of the world."

You wrote: 'Both regimes are evil'.
One regime is democracy which gives equal rights to Arabs (for example Arab judge sentenced Jewish president to jail) , women and gays where elected government is constantly criticized and other one is religious fundamental terrorist organization where opposition is killed or jailed, which see nothing wrong with killing civilians and kidnapping children.
So my question to you: what Israel should do to stop being evil, and what Hamas should do to stop being evil?

 

I agree that it's a terrible position and I think, since Israel just does what it wants, that the international community should petition to allow whoever wants to leave Gaza to leave. I see this as the only way forward with minimum further casualties.

 

Your post proves that you don't know anything about the PLO, Hamas, and other terrorist organizations, Islam, the Middle East, geopolitical power games, the recent history of the MENA region, and other ingredients needed to understand terrorism.

Behavior is driven by beliefs. Psychologists understood the power of beliefs a long time ago.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...08/3-ways-your-beliefs-can-shape-your-reality

People tend to join organizations whose ideologies match their beliefs. All we have to do to understand why people join Hamas is look at their beliefs.

 

Maybe. But I don't need to know much. Just more than you. And that has been proven by the fact that you now have no response to my arguments and believe that just repeating the same talking points I refuted will suffice.

Great! This give me the opportunity to illustrate once again how binary thinking works.

So, boys and girls, you can now see a poster who wants to argue that if bahavior is driven by beliefs, it is ONLY driven by beliefs. Any moderately intelligent person know that's not so.

In this case, like in anything, beliefs play a part in the decision to become a terrorist. But it's not the PRIMARY motive. However, those who think in binary cherry pick ONE cause, and they will want to convince you that, not only it's the principal motive, but that it HAS to be the one and only cause.

You have made my case. Thanks for playing...

 

I think you are right. The less we know, more convinced we are, and there are plenty of examples. The biggest expert of Global Warming is Greta Thunberg, the biggest expert of Covid, business, finance and intelligence is President Trump, etc. I am very impressed that you know more than Pisa about PLO, Hamas, and other terrorist organizations, Islam, the Middle East, geopolitical power games, the recent history of the MENA region. Where did you learn all this stuff?

Well, I am lost here, because I don't remember Pisa said the behavior is driven ONLY by beliefs. My opinion is that beliefs are major factor in human behavior and here is another proof:
https://www.rferl.org/a/germany-cologne-tajikistan-suspects-attack-threat/32754484.html

What was the major motive for Tajiks and Uzbeks to attack the Cologne Cathedral? Because it is to big? Because the ringing bells prevent their afternoon naps?

 

So, to you, Greta Thunberg is the biggest expert on Global Warming? Well... that just about says it all.

In the early 2000s, people who had no idea how science works though Al Gore was the greatest expert on Global Warming.

I believe that was his point. Because if he just wanted to say that belief is one factor that influences human behavior, that would be great in a Motivational forum, and it's actually true... but irrelevant to this discussion. Your pick: binary thinking or irrelevance. Makes no difference to me.

 

He was being sarcastic.

HE doesn't really exist, so let's focus on HER words.

When I said that beliefs drive behavior, I used the term "beliefs" as defined in psychology.

"Beliefs are our brain’s way of making sense of and navigating our complex world. They are mental representations of the ways our brains expect things in our environment to behave, and how things should be related to each other—the patterns our brain expects the world to conform to. Beliefs are templates for efficient learning and are often essential for survival."
https://www.psychologytoday.com/int...tually-is-belief-and-why-is-it-so-hard-change

Simply put, when you open your fridge to get food, you do it because you believe there's food in your fridge. If you bring home a member of an isolated tribe from the Amazonian jungle, he won't open the fridge when hungry. He'll probably try to kill your cat or the neighbor's dog because he believes a man has to kill his own food.

Back to "our" terrorists. What do they believe? What is their mental representation of reality? What is common to all of them? What are their declared goals?

 

Yes, I noticed my writings are difficult to understand, I wrote:
"The less we know, more convinced we are, and there are plenty of examples. The biggest expert of Global Warming is Greta Thunberg, the biggest expert of Covid, business, finance and intelligence is President Trump, etc.'
Your conclusion is that for me Greta Thunberg is the biggest expert on Global Warming.

Well, let me try again, may this time it will be more clear what I wanted to say:
Some people think they are so smart, that they castrate sentences of their opponents and draw conclusion from the castrated sentences. These people usually don't know the subject, for them the biggest expert of Global Warming is Greta Thunberg, the biggest expert of Covid, business, finance and intelligence is President Trump, etc.'

Now do you understand? If not, I am here to help you.
De nada!

And to our 'discussion': I still claim that religion in major factor in human behavior (but not the only one), for example deeply religion Muslim person will try to attack church, because he is convinced this is exactly what God expect from him, for example:
https://www.rferl.org/a/germany-cologne-tajikistan-suspects-attack-threat/32754484.html

Of course someone can claim that this is coincidence that so many Muslims are involved in terrorist acts and it has nothing to do with religion, but for example with Global Warming or with recent sighting of UFO, it is OK, we live in free society and believing that Islam is religion of peace is not a crime.

 

I'm not too sure about that. I have heard that sort of arguments by science denialists since the 2000s, when they thought Al Gore was the world's leading expert on Global Warming. Very suspicious especially if he needs YOU to defend him

My apologies...

Nobody is challenging psychology. The point of the OP is that the ONLY factor (as per the OP) is religion. And the way to demonstrate that is cherry picking religious writings. That, on the one hand, is binary thinking. On the other, is a very weak argument.

"They"??? Here again you make my point: this is the desperate grasp for simplistic explanations that include binary thinking and false generalizations.

Your reasoning is, the same as the OP: "They" are all Muslims, therefore, their motivation is religion. The underlying (and false) assumption is that they are all (or even a majority) religious fanatics. That is what bigotry would dictate. But NOT reality.

They ALSO have in common that they all live in the Gaza Strip, which is an area that is frequently attacked (even in times of cease fire) by Israeli forces seeking out terrorists. And where they are not allowed to leave because Israel has their territory under control. And where living conditions are horrible because Israel often cuts their electrical power, their water supply and often their food supply... they have few options to ever get out of this situation because Israel controls what they export.

But I'll answer your questions within your limited framework. Some believe that their ... [father, mother, sister, brother, son, daughter,...] should not have been killed, others that they live in inhuman conditions, and yet other believe that they are unfairly targeted by Israel.... and MANY other alternatives. Their mental representation of reality is that what killed their loved ones, and what keeps them in this situation comes from Israel. So their goal is, most likely, REVENGE... or something to do with that.

It is MUCH more credible that they join terrorist groups because they want revenge, for any of the above reasons, and other, than it is that they join because they read some religious writing. The latter is absolute NONSENSE.

The thing is that expecting that MORE violence against them is going to solve the problem is nonsense. Violence will only make it WORSE. Because MORE of them will want revenge. MY suspicion is that what Netanyahu seeks is outright racial cleansing. That is NOT going to happen. But even attempting it is a crime against humanity.

There is only ONE "solution". Which is not perfect. There will be animosity between the two sides for decades to come. But it's the ONLY way to EVER hope to solve the problem. And that's a two-state solution.

 

Ah... so we are making progress. Because it was the only one in your OP. I didn't see any others. However, not TOO much progress. Clearly there are NUTS in the world. They are individuals. For example, a nut who, for religious reasons, attacks an abortion clinic. That doesn't mean that all Catholics who oppose abortion are terrorists.

Your example makes my case AGAIN. You take the characteristics of a few individuals, and arbitrarily ascribe them to a large group. In this case, there are factors that are IMMENSELY more pressing than their religious beliefs.

Look... Some of these are people have seen somebody dear to them killed (parent, son, daughter... ) Others live a life of poverty because they are under a de-facto occupation by Israel. They know their children whom they love (believe me, they DO love their children) have no future. They are desperate! Forget religion! THESE factors are waaaay more likely to make somebody a terrorist. And of course, as I said before, religion plays a role in that those who join organizations like Hamas convince the new recruits that it's OK to kill innocent people because of the same cherry-picked writings that you publicize. But that is NOT, in any way shape or form, the reason why they joined these groups in the first place.

 

Bribed Joe unveils new Middle East Map

'After assuring us that his memory is fine, Joe Biden refers to Sisi of Egypt as "the president of Mexico."'

'Moses parted the Rio Grande to lead the Israelites to the promised land'



https://instapundit.com/631337/

 

Here's a more balanced approach to the matter:
https://www.newarab.com/analysis/why-palestinian-political-unity-remains-out-reach

 

Another poster made a very strong argument in favor of the OP, but you completely ignored it. I wonder why.

Islam is not limited to the Quran. There are tons of other writings, fatwas, traditions, interpretations, laws, and schools of jurisprudence. The other poster mentioned al-Qutb, the extremist ideologue of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, whose writings "inspired" al-Qaeda and later ISIS (their brand of radical Islam is called "qutbism"). Hamas is also an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, an organization whose goal is to impose Muslim rule everywhere in the world.

The short answer to "why Hamas attacked Israel" is "because it espouses a religious ideology advocating violent Jihad". In their own words (the Istanbul declaration - scroll down to page 5):

The Jihadist "Istanbul Declaration" and the Gaza Flotilla (terrorism-info.org.il)

Please use your theory to explain the 1929 massacre of the 500-year-old Jewish community in Hebron.

 

Because you are going around and around in circles defending an argument that is completely besides the point I was making when I responded to the OP.

Let me go back to my original point.

The OP calls his post "research". It's not! If he/she had done PROPER research, they would have found that...
- There is, and there has been for decades, a de-facto occupation of Gaza by Israel.
- Israel controls power and water going into Gaza and often cuts this as "punishment" for an attack. Most of the water is undrinkable
- After Israel left Gaza, the conflict has not ceased. There have been frequent incursions (from both sides), rocket attacks, air attacks, ... that KILL civilians who had NOTHING to do with the convict.
- Killing civilians who had nothing to do with the conflict means their survivors will be VERY angry at who killed them. Angrier than they would be if they had simply read a religious writing.
- Israel controls what comes in and goes out of Gaza (people, imports, exports, etc....). They have had an air sea and land blockade for decades.
- Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan.. etc... are NOT allowed by Israel to return to Palestine.
- Palestinians who want to leave are not allowed because Israel has bombed the crossing between Egypt and Gaza
- Israel refuses to grant Palestinians a right to run their own state.
- Most Israelites who interact with Palestinians treat them as second class human beings.
- ... oh... and there are some passages in Muslim writings that could be interpreted as license to kill non-Muslims.

The above is off the top of my head. I haven't done enough proper research myself to come to a conclusion. But this is just an example of what the OP WOULD have found.

Now... if PROPER research found that the last bullet point in the list TRUMP's all the rest, then so be it. But the poster didn't even make an effort. Personally, I think that's ridiculous. But the poster didn't even MENTION any of these And the OP calls this "research".

No! This is a perfect example of STARTING with a conclusion, and then cherry-picking anything that supports that conclusion while ignoring anything that doesn't.

We should not STAND for this. If Israel wants our help, they better get their act together. Even the people of Israel are now understanding that this is not going to accomplish anything. The ONLY thing these attacks by Netanyahu are accomplishing is to breed MORE terrorists. It is NOT helping. And, as I said, ONE of the two sides will have to embrace the role of being "the adult in the room". Since Israel is taking OUR help, we must insist that THEY take that role.

That was my whole point. You posting more and more religious scripts is NOT going to change the fact that there are too many factors in play besides religion, that to any RATIONAL observer would appear to carry way more weight.

Bottom line is that Israel is NOT going to change religious scripts, or make them change their religion. They CAN start a process to change the other factors. The fact that they DON'T clearly indicates that Netanyahu's objective is racial cleansing. And that is not only inhuman, but it has NEVER worked, and will NEVER work.

 

The massacre of the Jews of Hebron, 1929. How does your theory explain that massacre?