Question For John Atheist: Don't You Want To Remember Your Good Deeds Forever?

Except that atheism is not a religion.

 

The farm things was an analogy for how the story of heaven is like the story we tell our pets. From what I can see, when you die, your body rots in the earth. So death ending your existence is the default explanation and the simplest that I have prepared myself for. I'm open to other theories but I don't have any belief in them either way.

I can tell you with complete certainty that all 3 of your arguments are easily refuted. How do I know this? Because I have talked to dozen of other people with their pet arguments. There is no argument for any religion that holds much water. Here are my simple rebuttals to two of them:
Design Argument: Theory of Evolution.
Religious Experience/Miracles: UFO Claims.
Eyewitness Accounts in the Gospels: Eyewitness Accounts for the Mormon church.
Faith: Other religions.
Cosmology/Fine Tuning Argument: Multiverse.

 

Atheism is a religion.
Atheism has a God.
Robert is an atheist.
Robert has a God.
Robert's God is named Robert.
Robert is his own Supreme Being.
Robert is his own God.
There is nothing higher in Robert's world than Robert.
So Atheism, for all practical purposes, is a religion.

JAG

 

But it is not.

Your vision is limited by your atheism -- or whatever you
identify as being.

But you don't know death ends your existence.
Know as in 2 + 2 = 4 know.

Thar's one of your themes.
The "easily refuted" thingy.
You claim that a lot.
You'll never know because I will not tell you what
they are. They could be 3 you have never heard
before. You're not Omniscient.
And I want you to exercise Faith.
You don't know that you will not come to Faith , ,
before its all over.
You can not see into the future.

Dozens are not enough.

You saying it does not make it so.
Also, if you had to stand "toe to toe" for 3 hours
before a live audience in a debate with say
Alvin Plantinga and William Lane Craig, you'd find out
right quick that Christianity is not based on Fideism --
and you'd re-think your "easily refuted" thingy.

You cannot present Empirical evidence that Theistic Evolution
did not happen. You simply do not know if it did, or did not.

Miracles can be true.
UFO's can be false.
You have no Empirical evidence that miracles did not really happen.
You have no Empirical evidence that UFO's are not piloted by aliens.
I do not believe they are --- but I can't prove there are no aliens up there
piloting UFO's and neither can you.
You're a man of faith, I see. You're making Faith-Based statements.

EAG can be true.
Mormonism can be false.
You have no Empirical evidence that proves this cannot be true.
Because one is false, does not mean that one cannot be true.

One of them could be true.
All the others could be false.
You can NOT prove that is not the case.
You simply can not.

There is no Empirical evidence that proves beyond any doubt
that there is a Multiverse.

Best.

JAG

 

If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby. Atheism is not a belief system nor is it a religion.

 

That's been worn thin
You have your view.
I have my view.
My view is that Atheism is a Religion
as explained up-thread
And a Belief System too.
And a World View also.

JAG





``

 

And yet atheism is STILL not a religion.

 

Ditto. Your vision is limited too. You are the one making most of the claims of certainty here.

When you talk to enough religious people, you get the hang of their arguments. There are about about a dozen common arguments that can be easily refuted by just googling them. Then you have these random personal arguments each person has that are almost always easy to refute. Like I heard a random one today that the world is actually made of thought because of Occham's Razor, and its origin can be best explained by a mind.

Debaters aren't experts. Public debate requires techniques and tricks that have nothing to do with truth. The discovery of truth requires much thought, discussion, and research, ideally by trained experienced experts. The kinds of people who are good at this are usually kind of nerdy and intellectual and are actually the worst debaters.

I never claimed that design didn't happen. I'm only refuting the design argument which claims that design is the only viable explanation and that natural forces can't produce complexity. The current theory of evolution does not include and does not need any magical forces to help it out. There is no evidence of any magical forces being involved with evolution.

I never claimed that miracles are false. I'm only saying that we are skeptical of UFO claims even when we have hundreds of accounts. By the same logic, we should be skeptical of religious experience and miracle claims.

Again, I'm not claiming that EAG is false. We have verified that Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, was a fraud. But yet the early Mormon church included many eyewitness accounts of miracles that corroborate each other. So just because the writers of the gospels made claims about Jesus, and agreed with each other, doesn't mean they are correct.

Again, I'm making no claims about which religion is true. I'm only saying that nearly every religion has faith as a main component. Since religions contradict each other on a lot of things, they can't all be true. This means that statistically speaking faith isn't a reliable way of knowing your religion is true.

God isn't proven just like a multiverse isn't proven. But both are possibilities. Therefore it is possible that there is a multiverse which explains why one universe out of many could be fine-tuned and how universes are created in the multiverse. Since this is possible, the cosmological and fine tuning arguments aren't reliable and only work if we assume there is no multiverse.

 

You're attempting to redefine atheism to fit your narrative. Tsk tsk.

 

No.
Not attempting.
Rather actually doing that.


Best

JAG



``

 

It's not unusual for a theist to opine on something they know little if anything about.

 

Incorrect.
You're making many.
And maybe the most.

You keep saying that.
"Easily refuted" is your theme song.
Then this: Easily refuted according to you.
There is no such things as , , ,
The International Authority On What Has, Or Has Not, Been Refuted.

Good to know.

"Viable" is subjective.
What is feasible or not feasible is subjective.
No 2 + 2 = 4 certainty here.

Theistic Evolution.
You can NOT prove it did not happen
You saying its "magical" does NOT mean that
it is actually magical. Just means YOU say it is,

Good to know.

No.
One can be true.
The other can be false.
The connection is not compelling.
The comparison is not compelling.

Good to know.

Like you said it does not mean they are not correct either.

One can be true.
The rest can be false.
Logic demands we say this.

Christianity is a Faith.
It is not based upon statistics.
It is not based on Empiricism.

Gotta go , ,,

Maybe tomorrow ?

Best

JAG

 

It's not unusual for a atheist to opine on something they know little if anything about.

 

Your opinions regarding atheism have no merit.

 

I'm agnostic. I don't claim that God exists or doesn't exist. I can't even say for sure there is no afterlife.

You don't believe me when I say religious arguments are easily refuted. Well, we are kind of debating them right now so you can judge for yourself whether they are easily refuted.

I never claimed theistic evolution didn't happen. I also can't prove that the Aliens didn't help with the Pyramids or that spirits aren't driving force of gravity. But the scientific evidence we have point to only naturalistic explanations and currently there is no evidence of magical involvement. The theory of evolution is perfectly viable without assuming God helped with the process. Therefore the design argument really doesn't show design is the only explanation for complexity.

Again, I'm not claiming that one is true and the other is false. Only that the same skepticism we apply to UFO sighting and all that other weird stuff you see on the History Channel be applied to miracle and religious experience claims. Religious experience and UFO claims are similar because they are both eyewitness accounts of something extraordinary that lack convincing physical evidence.

Exactly, the gospels aren't necessarily false either. Its just that writers claiming something doesn't necessarily make it true.

And I am in complete agreement, one religion can easily be true. The vast majority of religions must be false because they make conflicting claims. Therefore the vast majority of people who have faith in their religion are wrong. Therefore faith alone isn't the most reliable way of figuring which religion is true. If Christianity is based only on faith, then there is a big problem.

See you around.

 

The term atheism means the LACK of religious beliefs in imaginary deities!

If you alter the meaning of the term it won't alter the FACT that there will STILL be millions of people who LACK any religious beliefs in imaginary deities.

But continue in your FUTILE endeavor that won't alter REALITY one iota!

 

Secularism isn't a faith or believe, it's a set of practices or polices. Theists can be (and often are) secularists too.

Pretty much all religions say stuff like that (certainly all the revealed ones). "Our religion is the correct one, our god is/gods are the best, following our faith will bring you the best outcome". Unless you could prove all of that (which you can't because that would contradict the faith principle), you can't offer any more (or less) than any of the others.

It got me an education and a career. It also means I can understand the irony of asking that question.

I didn't ignore it, I followed up. If you (based on the Bible) are saying that we are free to choose what we believe, you could demonstrate that by temporarily choosing to stop believing in God. Or are you saying we're free to choose to believe in God but once we do, we're not longer free to change again?

You're literally applying the first four in this very thread to try to convince people that following your religion would be better than atheism.

I never made a decision to not believe in any god or gods, I just never have. I can also make rational arguments against blindly accepting any of the various religious assertions that are presented without sufficient definitive evidence.

Because I simply don't believe it is true. Why can't you appreciate that?

 

Your opinions regarding Theism have no merit..
My opinions regarding atheism are saturated with merit.
_________

Remember , , ,
Henry is an atheist.
Henry has a god.
Henry's god is named Henry.
Henry is his own Supreme Being.
Henry has a religion.
The name of Henry's religion is atheism.
The Religion Of Atheism.

JAG

 

Remember , , ,

JAG is an theist.
JAG has an IMAGINARY god.
JAG's god is named JAG.
JAG is his own Supreme Being.
JAG has a religion.
The name of JAG's religion is JAGism.
The Religion Of JAGism.

My opinions regarding JAGism are saturated with merit.

 

What are my opinions regarding theism?
Quote me on that topic.

 

Secular Humanism is a Faith-based religion.
It functions like a religion and has a god.
Every Secularist is his own God.
Every Secularist is his own Supreme Being.
I shall continue to announce it.
There is nothing you can say, think, or do, to prevent it.

Built around the fact that each
Secularist is his own God -- his own Supreme Being
in the Religion Of Secular Humanism.

False.
In my world that's False.
Nobody owns words.
You can define say the word Love as meaning garbage if that's your thing.
You don't own the word "Theists"
Theism - "belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in one god as creator of the universe"
You use the word "theism" like you want to use it.
I will do the same.
That's true of any word out there.
You and I are not going to have any worthwhile communication anyway -- so
what difference does it make if we use contradictory definitions
of English words? Answer: No difference at all.

,

You don't know that.
You're not Omniscient {all knowing}.
I can know things you don't know.
Christendom has thousands of highly educated scholars
and you don't know all that they know.

"What shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world
but loses his own soul"___The Lord Jesus

John 3:16 offers you a choice:
{1} believe on the Lord Jesus as your Savior and get Eternal Life
{2} refuse to believe and perish -- lose your soul
_____

The Lord Jesus said, if you refuse to believe in Him, that you
will "die in your sins" , , that you will perish
.
Your "education" and your "career" will do you no good
in your relatively soon-coming Date With Death.

Why do you want to know that?
Are you ready to become a believer? I'd bet not.
Become a Christian, and then I will give you the answer to
that question.
Meanwhile let it remain a mystery.

You don't know that.
You don't know what my motives are in posting.
I can have good motives that are hidden from you.
You don't know that I don't.
"No man can come to me unless the Father draws him", said the Lord Jesus.
"All that the Father gives me will come to me", said the Lord Jesus.
Maybe YOU are not one of them.
You can go on your merry way, and at the end you'll find out.
_____

Neither do you know what I am "depending upon."
The Holy Spirit does 100% of the , , what was your word ? , , " convince."
The Holy Spirit does all the convincing.
Its supernatural.

Incorrect.
You did make a decision.
You have made your choice.
I have two things to "go on" here.
{1} What you say.
{2} Romans chapter 1 , , , ,and other Bible teachings
Romams chapter 1 says that God has revealed Himself to all men
and all men know there is a God.
Romans chapter 1 says that men "suppress the truth"
Question: "Do you mean you know more about what I believe than I do"?
Yes. Exactly. I DO mean that. Exactly that.
I will go with Romans chapter 1
And disregard what you claim to be true about your not choosing.
Does that "outrage" you?
So whadda ya gonna do?
Stop paying my Light & Water bill?
Scratch my name off of your prayer list?
Stop posting to me every now and then? Oh I just couldn't bear that.

You know there is a God.
You know about the Lord Jesus.
You have at least a general idea what God wants you to do.
You have made a choice. You said No.
You are sustaining that choice daily.
You have a certain-coming date with The Judgment.
And with the fierce battlefield commander General Death.
If you're 60 and live to be 90, that's only 360 months and
you'll find out if Christianity is true.

Not gonna do you any good when you stand before God at
The Judgement and have to pay for your own sins by
experiencing the "perish" of John 3:16
You have only two ways to go:
{1} Accept the Lord Jesus as your Savior who paid for your
sins on the Cross so you would not have to pay for therm.
{2} Reject the Lord Jesus as your Savior and you personally
pay for your own sins by experiencing the "perish" of John 3:16

Incorrect.
You know it is true.
You just don't want God telling you how to live your life.
You are your own God.
You want to keep it that way.
HonestJoe does believe in God and the name of
HonestJoe's God, is HonestJoe
This is why your atheism is a religion.
It has a God, YOU.

Because I know its not true.
Romans 1:18-20
God knows more about you, than you know about you.

Best.

JAG

``

 

You don't know what your own opinions on Theism are?
Just relax and let your mind rest awhile and you will
remember your opinions on Theism.

I'm counting on your memory returning to you.
When it "all comes back" you can post
it up here in this thread.
By the way, I expect your opinions on Theism will be
heart-warming, bright, and cheerful.

JAG

 

If your IMAGINARY god is omniscient then what he did to Adam and Eve was ENTRAPMENT because he KNEW in advance that Eve would NOT be able to resist the temptation.

Given that YOUR entire religion is based upon the bovine excrement allegation that EVERYONE is a SINNER and that ONLY Jesus can "save" you from these "sins" means that it is all just a massive CON JOB by your imaginary god.

Sad!

 

Obviously YOU don't know because you can't quote me. Why do you suppose that is?
Did you forget the ninth commandment?
"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour"

 

Secularism and Secular Humanism are two different things. I am not a Secular Humanist.

Yes, and that is entirely comparable with secularism, which is about separation of religion and state and freedom to practice religion.

Because you posted a question on a discussion forum and I need to understand what you actually mean to properly discuss or answer it.

Do you know what the word "literally" means? I described exactly what was written in your OP.

I have never believed in any gods. When are you proposing I made that conscious decision?

I "know" what Allah wants. I "know" what Vishnu wants. I "know" what Zeus wants. I treat all of those different assertions equally and none of them hve convinced me of their truth. I couldn't simple decide to start believing any one unconditionally any more than I could decide to start believing it's snowing on a hot sunny day.

Possibly. Or I might get a free opportunity to repent my sins there and then. Or we could both be equally screwed when we stand before an entirely different god we've both failed to worship. Or I could be lucky and find eternity rewards those who never committed to any specific faith and you'll be the one to be punished. We have literally no idea so I'm not going to worry about it until (if) it happens.

You said earlier that I can't know your motives so how can you declare that you know mine? Smacks of double standards to me.